Originally Posted by kilo delta
It's been said many times before here...but..
The developer should build THEIR model first and foremost to THEIR OWN satisfaction. If the end user wants to nitpick or ridicule the end result then in the words of one of our own freeware dev's (Bjoern, a guy who got up off his ass and taught himself how to build some excellent freeware FS models) "they can f...... f... right off"
I just KNEW that you'd comment in this thread!
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things — Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
I'm not sure I agree with the comments that freeware painters / developers aren't appreciated. A few may make negative comment, but is it perhaps that these stand out and get remembered ?
I'm a relatively quiet forum user on here, but really so appreciate the effort that people put in and I'm confident that many more are like me. Please don't form negative conclusions because of a few comments. It's spoiling your fun doing the great work you do and will spoil the fun of 'takers' like myself who don't have the skills to do what you guys do but rely on you.
Chins up guys, too many negative waves floating around. now get that paint brush back out :salute:
Man, you have some of my first planes! LOL! I redid the Porter totally but never uploaded it. I am actually digging through the old sceneries and looking at some of the old macros I made and converting them over to library items for my Instant Scenery. I have too many hobbies now and bounce around between them. Between work, simming, plastic modeling and model railroading, I stay fairly busy! LOL! I do still have my bush site as well. Drop on by! Address is on my signature.Hello, Don!
It's been a while, but good to see you again! Incidentally I have a couple of your earlier works in my Hangar; the Lockheed AL-60 and your Pilatus Porter, which I use all the time, along with a few of your Alaska scenery packages. (Talk about oldies...)
Attachment 91616
Don
My take on it...
I strongly agree with the premise that persistent, rudely presented commentary from an end user of freeware or payware is abhorrent. On that note though, we can't be too quick to jump on anyone offering advice to a modeler/developer. I've seen a few instances in the hobby of a crowd using aggressive, harsh language against someone who is politely, gently presenting a critique that may be able to be addressed.
There are some in the community that feel that freeware should not be critiqued at all at any level, no matter how polite or factually correct the end user is, but I think this mindset is a disservice to advancing the flight simulation hobby.
If I try out a freeware aircraft for example, and it's one that I know a fair bit about, perhaps have real-world experience on, or just see something out of place...I should be able to gently suggest a fix or improvement. It probably relates to a cosmetic or minor functional trait that is not "necessary" for the addon to work correctly, but enhances accuracy. Suggesting this to our developers and encouraging improvement, I believe, is a positive thing for our hobby if presented correctly. If we didn't encourage improvement, again....politely....we would be years behind in addon progress in terms of fidelity.
The above is admittedly difficult for a community to put in practice though, since everyone has a different line/boundary as to what is helpful critique and what is considered "rivet counting".
As mentioned, this line can be anywhere from: Absolutely no critique whatsoever.....to rude remarks.
All in all, I feel that the flightsim community should be free to constructively critique freeware and payware releases. It's the angry remarks and persistence after being told "it won't be fixed" multiple times that seems to be the problem, but we can't halt addon advancement by applying a blanket "no critiquing" statement on freeware or any other addon type.
Just my opinion...
1979 .. I'm only a newbie 83 simmer and thought now how can i count the rivet , mix the concrete and paint the walls and plant the trees ... oh and park the cars ...
So many Freeware Developers and some bloody great Rivet counters .. The Marks , Milton's and the Manfred's to the Paul's and PutPuts .. gawd the list go's on .. Dino's to the JKs to the Jans
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It's not so much what you say but how you say it. I think that many comments that are made and seem nasty are those who speak English as a second language. But, as has been pointed out, there are those 1% ers who are never satisfied.
I am guilty of not giving positive comments to all those developers who further our hobby. I hope to change this in the future. We all should!
Bob
I don't have a single freeware aircraft in my hangar but I am certainly thankful for all of the free repaints out there. I guess the down side of constantly having bleeding edge payware come out is that it raises my expectations for all addons. Repaints are a fun way to enjoy both freeware and payware at the same time. :ernae:
From a practical perspective.....
Depicting all the rivets on a model would make the model look odd. Its a matter of scale. No matter what you try to do, your model is going to be depicted on monitor that may or may not be capable of depicting HDMI, or will be limited in size, or....(you can continue adding).
The point is that sometimes you don't want to depict with complete accuracy, because it won't LOOK accurate.
I give you "Barbie" as an example. Completely natural looking model as a little doll....bizarre if scaled up to full size.
And.....it's just plain rude to offer criticism if it's not done in the right vein and with an eye towards being constructive. It's also wise not to be too sensitive if you put anything (freeware or otherwise) out to the public.
Basic Flying Rules: "Try to stay in the middle of the air. Do not go near the edges of it. The edges of the air can be recognized by the appearance of ground, buildings, sea, trees and interstellar space. It is much more difficult to fly there."
Coming from a person who speaks English impeccably... as well as 5 other languages... I must point out that a reference to ESL speakers (English as a second language) [which I taught for the US Army after I retired...
could also be misinterpreted... and this brings me to the point of your comment... as you well point out... "It's not so much what you say as how you say it" (sic)
So I would like to add... Fair comments can be misinterpreted or taken offense by a lot of people.... ESL speakers...and natives alike... when they are made by BOTH US and UK speakers who more often than not... seem to have missed a whole bunch of periods in grammar, spelling, punctuation, usage, you name it... in Home Room...
In other words... people can also be "put off" by sanctimonious comments made in atrocious English...masquerading as "officious" language...
The first thought that comes to my mind often enough when I hear them is:
"How valid can this comment be when the person making it does not seem to know the difference between THERE and THEIR... or GOOD and WELL... AFFECT and EFFECT...etc.
Especially in the US... (and Italy as well) a lot of folks take ESL speech to mean the person is not very smart... when the guy with the accent or foreign transliterations might be a real "brain"
In Italy especially (where I lived for many years)... and where they have formal and familiar ways to address conversation... people almost always address "third world" immigrants with "Tu" [familiar] but
Americans, Germans, etc. with "Lei" (YOU formal]... never for a moment thinking that this address is condescending and paternalistic.
As an obvious American... I never had an Italian give me the "Tu" without having been previously introduced... Yet.. all Africans and Arabs.. are "Tu"... [kind of like all young black men were "boy" and
older men "Uncle" in the Old South ]... and guess what? Whenever I pointed this out to Italian folks... they were surprised at never having thought about the effects of their words on foreign folks....
Just like you said... It is not WHAT but HOW!!! The art of communication seems destined to be a "lost art"....
I did a count up today and discoverd i'm registered at around 18 diferent FS forums. Of those, It's VERY apparent, that here at SOH, repaints and other freeware, are in fact received in a far, FAR more grateful spirit than any of the others. Much as I agree fundamentally with the OP, I also believe, than GENERALLY speaking, SOH differs somewhat.
In my last paid line of work:salute:, I once quite literally saved the lives of 5 guys, getting seriously injured in the process. It was just one of those once in a lifetime opportunities to make it count. Of these guys, I receive regular Christmas cards form 4 of them, and have done so for years. The 5th guy said at the time, and I'll quote precisely... "hey dude, it's you're job. It's what you're paid for. Don't expect me to be grateful". I learn't to take those kind of comments with more than just a little salt (and even a a smile)
We mortals are made up of all sorts, and what a boring place this ammazing world would be if we were all the same.
Make of that what you will.
If you know the avatar, you know the man!
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Windows 10 (x64) on M.2 SSD - FS Software on: Sata SSD
A free opportunity to explode and sneak poorly disguised bad language in. Who can't resist THAT?I just KNEW that you'd comment in this thread!
Thanks to all you creators.
As a rare poster,my first here,I would sincerely like to thank
you people who have given this old guy such joy. I have a lot
of treasures I cherish both scenery,models and repaints.
Maybe there are a lot of us out there that find posting a little
difficult. Every person who has given freely their talents should
be applauded and thanked. I have been remiss in doing so.
Please don,t let the rivet counters win.
Regards Anthin
When it comes to freeware, my attitude is to not look the gift horse in the mouth. I am grateful for all of the freeware developers out there and the majority of the add-ons in my install of FS9 and FSX are freeware. As for criticizing freeware, if I feel that I can give advice in a constructive manner, I will, otherwise, I keep my mouth shut. If the skin is not perfect, there is the possibility that I can make corrections. There are some really incredible freeware offerings available to us and a lot of that freeware is at least to the level of quality and detail as payware.
I give a big round of applause to the freeware developers.
My computer: ABS Gladiator Gaming PC featuring an Intel 10700F CPU, EVGA CLC-240 AIO cooler (dead fans replaced with Noctua fans), Asus Tuf Gaming B460M Plus motherboard, 16GB DDR4-3000 RAM, 1 TB NVMe SSD, EVGA RTX3070 FTW3 video card, dead EVGA 750 watt power supply replaced with Antec 900 watt PSU.
I am certainly no rivet counter, I enjoy the work of many of our freeware creators, and I don't believe I've ever uttered any words of critique constructive or otherwise for a freeware model or scenery. However I do wonder about this post a bit. I guess what I'm asking is why do you create freeware? If it's to contribute to the community, learn new skills, give back to what has been given before are all very noble ideals. I just wonder if all that is true, why the words of a few idiots puts that in jeopardy. I think if the reason to create freeware is to have everyone in the community kiss your ass and praise your name to the highest, that's probably just as unhealthy for us all as the rivet counters are. I think that the work of freeware artists should be encouraged at all times, but if we're talking about entitlements, I believe freeware creators are entitled to respect and gratitude from the community. not universal acclaim. in other words, expect that some people are going to be morons, and carry on.
sure, I agree. I wasn't saying all freeware devs are looking for that. I just don't agree with "no criticism is allowed on freeware" even if I don't generally have an inclination to criticize.
As a dabbler rather than a developer I'm possibly a little more relaxed about criticism. However, my thought would be that there is a difference between critique which can, if done well, be a positive thing and the sort of negative criticism we so often see; using a sports analogy, it is the difference between hearing from a geniune fan who wants the best for a sports person/team and a couch potato with a beer in one hand, pie in the other and crisps/chips on his beergut loudly proclaiming that "Wayne Rooney * is a talentless fat b*****d" - I'll happily listen to the first one, but will treat the second with contempt (even if he has a spare beer).
Just my thoughts, for what it is worth.
* Insert sports man of choice.
Andy
How true! I used to compete in model shows regularly and you are right! The "rivet counters" and "experts" are brutal there! I finally quit listening to them and built and displayed for my own satisfaction. To H**l with the A**hole "rivet counters"!
Dave
Since my getting involved in flightsim generally, over the years I've become my own worst enemy as far as rivet counters are concerned. What began as a journey learning to paint FS models, invariably became a fixation to strive for perfection more or less. Once my skills and other forms of manipulation had gotten refined, the rivet counting bug had bitten me badly. This happening began to push the limits of my abilities and knowledge, which led me to strive for better end results. It's very rewarding actually, and very frustrating. It was a personal desire to count rivets in (my) workmanship. That was during the times I was doing only repaints. Now that I'm creating the models myself in Gmax, I find that my rivet counting continues as I model every little thing there is aside from the dirt and grime. Eventually, and very likely my modeling everything, will haunt me as I start mapping everything for the textures. Time will tell the further I go.
I like to count rivets and other details. Least in my work. :salute:
Ya know, when it comes to flight models, i'm not as good as i used to be maybe. its ok. I love the work being done by all the others doing flight models, now. they're pretty darned good.. but when it comes to 3D models?/ Oh boy.. hey, i'm new.. I'm lucky to be able to get a ball in FSX and make it bounce.. I do my best. maybe it isnt going to be 100% accurate, I'm lucky to make a recognizable facsimile. But i'm not going to let rivet counters, bean counters or anyone hold me down. I've done and will always do my very best, and i refuse to feel bad about that..
Haven't posted in awhile as I have been busy with work and I need to get another video card... but I had to reply to this post and say.....
BRAVO!!!!
crashAZ- Virtual Navy
[SIGPIC]http://www.sim-outhouse.net/images/rtwr2013/rtwr2013_sm.png[/SIGPIC]
Thank Gary....You said it all for all of us.....
I do a lot of repaints for the A2A Mustang CIVI and MIL.....It took a lot to get where I am now in painting aircraft, each one is different, and challenging in their own right.....
The sceneries I do are the same way, it has taken a lot to get where I am now, and I am discovering a lot everyday on both these things.
Uhoh! You said the B-Word !!! I don't know how to make rivets, so cannot count them even if I would want to. But the governmental beancounters are on my neck every week and they are a lot WORSE than those few rivetcounters in our hobby. :isadizzy:
We once had a chap who downloaded our Auster AOP.9 model and then sent an email saying that it didn't look right or fly right either. Now, that had been built (just like all those before and after) with the original pilot's notes, technical manuals, hundreds of photographs, books and magazine articles, owners recollections etc and was a very accurate model. Even the sounds were recorded from an airworthy 9. I'd had then about 60 hours in them and was so intrigued to learn more about the gentleman's experience that emailed him back straight away - he replied to say that he had never seen one in real life, but it still wasn't correct. I give up at times!!!
All our models are built using the above references. We like to get things as accurate as the simulator software allows, or otherwise in our opinion it just isn't worth building. Over 700 hours go into each model. How people can say something is wrong, or change a value, sometimes publicly is beyond me at times.
Martin
Never underestimate the potential of people to be complete jerk-offs. It's nothing personal, just the way they are. You know you've created a good product, don't ever let guys like that get your morale down. :salute:We once had a chap who downloaded our Auster AOP.9 model and then sent an email saying that it didn't look right or fly right either... Even the sounds were recorded from an airworthy 9. I'd had then about 60 hours in them and was so intrigued to learn more about the gentleman's experience that emailed him back straight away - he replied to say that he had never seen one in real life, but it still wasn't correct. I give up at times!!!
Martin
These sort of people are the type of person who aren't satisfied with anything - ever. You bump in to those every once in a while and notice them immediately because they are always whining about something. Extremely annoyning type and their lifes must be quite a misery when nothing is ever fine or good, which on the other hand is a proper punishment for such behaviour.We once had a chap who downloaded our Auster AOP.9 model and then sent an email saying that it didn't look right or fly right either. Now, that had been built (just like all those before and after) with the original pilot's notes, technical manuals, hundreds of photographs, books and magazine articles, owners recollections etc and was a very accurate model. Even the sounds were recorded from an airworthy 9. I'd had then about 60 hours in them and was so intrigued to learn more about the gentleman's experience that emailed him back straight away - he replied to say that he had never seen one in real life, but it still wasn't correct. I give up at times!!!
All our models are built using the above references. We like to get things as accurate as the simulator software allows, or otherwise in our opinion it just isn't worth building. Over 700 hours go into each model. How people can say something is wrong, or change a value, sometimes publicly is beyond me at times.
Martin
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