Why was the Nemeth / Piracy thread locked ?

[Paul K]

Interesting to read everyone's thoughts on one of the most contentious issues facing this hobby and its developers. A little tetchy at times, but misunderstandings were quickly resolved, and it remained very civilized. Then arbitrarily closed down for no worthwhile reason.

Many of us might have wanted to contribute something more to it, so can we have it reopened or given a reason for it being locked ? I really don't understand this place at times.

[Roger]

Paul,
Not only was it likely to get "tetchy" and it was getting tetchier, it was also way off topic and going nowhere useful. The thread was on a "watch" list and with SOH being dubbed a "pirates'" site by someone after the "Duck incident" we are not prepared to risk more of the same after reading that some members almost seemed to condone piracy as it can't be stopped.
Our attitude to piracy is in the stickied area of both this forum and Newshawks.

If you want to start a thread dealing with similar issues (why???) ok, but if the staff feel it has transgressed it will be closed.

[Ian Warren]

I recall the day Nemeth Bros released may absolute fave in Helicopters - The CH53 , we don't see these in the NZ , the purchase was during the SP1/SP2 microsoft packs and caused all sorts off problems , i had a few ridiculous comments due to my frustration but final really got to enjoy that and never been disappointed with that chopper , I own 5
CH53 - Sea Stallion
MD500 - Little Bird
UH-1H - co-operation with Milviz
Sykcrane - as above
A109 which is a treat

End off the day , Our good friend s the Nemeth Bros and many others whether is Helicopters , Aircraft and Scenery require help , I do it free for a few NZ designers
simply for the getting it right and making it real .

Just a pity stealing is all to common - sudo names and no honest connection .

[skyhawka4m]

Just so everyone is aware I DID NOT start that thread with any ill will or intentions. I posted it as a "new" worthy FS issue. If some one here thinks I posted it in support of piracy, I highly suggest you read all my comments in the thread. Frankly, just because of that issue and someone else's comments I've decided to purchase 2 more FS products. When you put the (why???) like that in your comment it seems you question my motives or anyones who would want to put out a news issue like this.

[wombat666]

Just so everyone is aware I DID NOT start that thread with any ill will or intentions. I posted it as a "new" worthy FS issue. If some one here thinks I posted it in support of piracy, I highly suggest you read all my comments in the thread. Frankly, just because of that issue and someone else's comments I've decided to purchase 2 more FS products. When you put the (why???) like that in your comment it seems you question my motives or anyones who would want to put out a news issue like this.

We understand it was most certainly 'Newsworthy'.
We also agree with your views on 'Theft' aka 'Piracy'.
We believe your motives were above board, but the thread had become contentious and ceased to remain relevant to the original content.

[michael davies]

I suspect my comments were seen as condoning piracy or theft, after all I didn't pointedly say I loathed them or disagreed to what they were doing, merely pointed out they existed and anyone who dares to ignore that fact is doing themselves and injustice and quite frankly the community a disservice, ignorance and denial are no excuse to skirt this issue. I don't like them, but its not I point I feel after 13 years in payware (and having probably been robbed more than most here in that time) I have to express every time one of these posts pops up. I suppose I was also way off topic in most of what I wrote, but have, and always will take the view that you have to first understand the problem before you can begin to fix it, and that often means exploring avenues that meander to a dead end.

One thing is clear though, what ever we are doing (collectively) or not doing, is most certainly not working, maybe an off topic suggestion or idea might be whats needed?, who knows, does anyone care?.

Its also saddening to hear SoH has a gun held to its head by an aggrieved payware developer on some, quite clearly, mis founded evidence.

In future I'll keep well away from such threads, I'd rather suffer in silence than worry that something said in good faith might upset someone.

Best

Michael

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL]

FS Secure Delivery was born this day , after discussions with a number of associates a system is now offered to the independent producers who wish to incorporate software protection in their releases.
The system is a complete Ecommerce solution , licence issuing , licence check , distribution and reports, available with a range of features to suit the needs and degree of security desired , licence verification with every use to the less intrusive installers, hacking will be back traceable to the original licence and that licence can be terminated, with auto licence verification any hacked versions can be terminated as well.

The FS Secure Delivery system was developed from proven systems by established pioneers in the field of Flight Sim Security, it’s been a couple of years now that not having these systems was the politically correct choice but it’s become an untenable situation , releases are going on the torrents within hous and Developers cannot recoup their basic investment, and as a result are not going to be able to continue, it’s become unaffordable .
There is a loose confederacy of independent developers , an international group with offices on MSN and Skype ( soon to be the same i suspect) with whom i have worked through the course of numerous projects, we get together with some regularity using VoIP and text, this new FS Secure Delivery Wrapper will be incorporated in upcoming releases , as i work with a number of companies they will be the first using it.

The option of joining the group using the system is open to developers who wish to do so, there are a few that are not in the `` MSN Dev’s Sandbox `` who are invited to contact me to get an overview of the particulars .

It’s time for the piracy plague to be terminated , while making sure legitimate customers are as free from grief as possible is paramount, it’s an unfortunate reality that there are far more illegitimate users, the net consequence is that the survival of the groups who produce these is at stake without a protection system being used to prevent piracy .

[Francois]

Is that the 'FSD' system you told me about last year, Chuck?

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL]

No Francois , it was something worked out this week but is based on using the software key system for licence issue.

[Bjoern]

The 'nice' thing about Facebook is that you can choose who to see and who NOT to see ;-)

Setting the wife, girlfriend, mother-in-law on "ignore" must be kind of fun... *Chuckle*

I don't think it will be worth the trouble, personally. Also, as much as we all love this hobby, consumers and developers alike, there is very little 'unity' in our ranks and I would be really intrigued to see who would be able to unite enough developers under any one 'organization'. Almost ALL of the groups have hidden agendas or other interests that are not always as obvious as one might think.

The larger outfits such as Aerosoft have their own solution. So smaller devs can join them (AE would love that I am sure). In the end, NO solution is really available with the exception of including a continuous on-line check into the software. Something that is VERY difficult to do in FSX add-ons and something most customers are fiercely against!

Personally, I am in the camp of those who believe that the majority of 'free downloaders' are not our real customers anyway and the ones that ARE will pay for their products by and large.

Texts such as Nemeth posted are just out of frustration, but really not very realistic. Anyone thinking he can make a living out of just designing add-ons for FS, missed a turn somewhere to begin with. Those - the vast majority - who do it for pleasure with a nice additional pocket money coming in, are not hurt by those pirates in any significant way.

And yes, I DO understand the frustration of seeing your hard work on a dozen piracy sites and forums, but getting all upset about it is only wrecking ones own life, and never theirs.

Quoted for absolute truth.

[Helldiver]

Back when I was a working stiff, about six years ago and I had more money than brains. I bought about everything that was advertised. Just as long as it hung a propeller. Then I quit working and went on Social Security. About that time my hard drive froze up, I also changed my e-mail address (it was stolen from me) plus I changed my Charge Card account.
I got me a new hard drive and tried to get my aircraft back. I had 12 of them from Alpha but because he didn’t recognize my name or my e-mail address we got into a real peeing contest and I didn’t get my aircraft back.
Then there was a Russian outfit that sold me Moscow Airport and had a password that was 400 characters long. They didn’t recognize me.
I then took on Fight One. They had 22 airplanes that I had purchased. It took them a year. But God bless them, they at least made good.
Caranado was quite different. They refused to even acknowledge I ever existed. Even though I had bought 12 airplanes from them. I fought with them for a month and finally gave up. There were others that I bought one or two from with the same negative results. So there’s countless 100 of dollars down the drain, without a thank you. Or any airplanes that I had paid for.
Now I’m living on Social Security and I’m looking at Spendware airplanes that are selling for $35. About what FSX originally cost me, come to think about it. Now I don’t care how nice it s, I can’t afford to throw away that kind of money with no guarantee that I can get it back when everything turns brown.
Now if my kid brother, in Alabama, sends me a nice airplane - than that makes me a pirate. But under my current circumstances, I just can’t afford to be ripped off any longer.

[Francois]

Down where we do our skiing, people over 65 get a discount for the lifts (used to be 60). Maybe we should do something like that for old-age pensioners in the FSX industry too.

About half of our customers would fall into that category I'd say. :-)

[Milamber]

Down where we do our skiing, people over 65 get a discount for the lifts (used to be 60). Maybe we should do something like that for old-age pensioners in the FSX industry too.

About half of our customers would fall into that category I'd say. :-)

I'm 67 and a [several times over] paying customer. Bring it on Francois

M.

[fsafranek]

Back when I was a working stiff, about six years ago and I had more money than brains. I bought about everything that was advertised. Just as long as it hung a propeller. Then I quit working and went on Social Security. About that time my hard drive froze up, I also changed my e-mail address (it was stolen from me) plus I changed my Charge Card account.
I got me a new hard drive and tried to get my aircraft back. I had 12 of them from Alpha but because he didn’t recognize my name or my e-mail address we got into a real peeing contest and I didn’t get my aircraft back.
Then there was a Russian outfit that sold me Moscow Airport and had a password that was 400 characters long. They didn’t recognize me.
I then took on Fight One. They had 22 airplanes that I had purchased. It took them a year. But God bless them, they at least made good.
Caranado was quite different. They refused to even acknowledge I ever existed. Even though I had bought 12 airplanes from them. I fought with them for a month and finally gave up. There were others that I bought one or two from with the same negative results. So there’s countless 100 of dollars down the drain, without a thank you. Or any airplanes that I had paid for.
Now I’m living on Social Security and I’m looking at Spendware airplanes that are selling for $35. About what FSX originally cost me, come to think about it. Now I don’t care how nice it s, I can’t afford to throw away that kind of money with no guarantee that I can get it back when everything turns brown.
Now if my kid brother, in Alabama, sends me a nice airplane - than that makes me a pirate. But under my current circumstances, I just can’t afford to be ripped off any longer.

This is too late to help with any of the above situations but I saw it the other day while trolling for FS/Mirage news. At the time I shrugged it off as just another add-on that I wouldn't need since I'm pretty anal about backups. But I saw this FSX Backup utility again this morning and remembered Hewlldiver's post. So for what it's worth:

http://www.fspilotshop.com/product_i...oducts_id=2991
:ernae:

[Bjoern]

I have a better one:

I will sell you the afterburners for 2 bucks, the landing gear for 5, the wings and fuselage for 10, the pilot figure for free, the paint kit for a buck, the VC for 10, all steam gauges for 10, any glass for 15-20 and the rest for free... oh.. Sound and a manual for 5 bucks.

I'm not even sure what all this adds up too.

As long as you can "componentize" the stuff stored in the .mdl... ;P

FWIW, my reasoning for granting a discount to 'pensioners' (I hate talking of OLD people myself), would NOT only be to curb piracy ( I personally think THEY are the least pf our problems in that respect) but more of a 'general acknowledgement' for what they have done for us as follow-up generations... and for hanging i there.

Students will have time enough in their life to build brilliant executive careers and save some oney for nice add-ons AND will need to still somehow PROVE they're worth the respect ;-) No disrespect meant in that, but I am sure you understand what I mean. ;-)

I don't. And I feel slightly offended. And discriminated.

If the world outside gives benefits to students or dinosaurs, why can't the internet? All it'd take for me would be mailing a certificate of immatriculation to a publisher that can be verified at the university's homepage and done.

Heck, even fast food joints grant a 10% rebate upon showing your student ID!

while trolling for FS/Mirage news

Haha!

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL]

The Senior Pilots are an outstanding part of the hobby , and make up the majority of folks who turn out to Sim related conferences as well, gentlemen one and all.

Myself and other Developers know that they as a group have fixed incomes , having left the workforce they need be careful with expenses and in cases when that income is spoken for we understand completely that they cannot purchase whatever hits the market , i have given away a great many free copies of products and most Dev's if asked would gladly provide free aircraft to those gentlemen who cannot afford them, they participate in the hobby in ways that are impossible to replace with their experiences and whit in the telling. <o></o>

[Francois]

Indeed, we too give away products for free or at a big discount to flightsimmers less fortunate than some. But it is not something we advertise, nor is there some 'structure' in that. Maybe a good idea to DO bring some structure into this practice, as I know many companies WILL honour them and their limitations.

[Aussiecop]

Well, didn't I miss the boat on this one, . Thank you to everyone who has posted in support in both this and another thread. I didn't post here as I didn't want to be spewing my frustration entirely across the web. I guess it was picked up an posted by a concerned user.

The best part about this situation if there is indeed a silver lining, is the chorus of support from people you don't usually hear from. To all this people we thank you.

I can't possibly touch on all the subjects people have mentioned and I don't want to get to specific as a thread on another forum degenerated into some serious insulting that was totally unwarranted but yes frustration was the root cause of the original thread.

I myself do not make a living from development, but 2 of the other developers do, and it is possible, maybe not here in the USA, but if you live somewhere where the cost of living is a 10th of what we pay it is more than possible.

I am really thankful for the majority of postings here about this subject as they have been constructive, helpful and supportive. We will be back but after a lot of work figuring out an anti piracy solution that as Colin said, protects our investment and does not alienate the existing customer base.

Thanks all


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[Penzoil3]

Went back to Nemeth today and bought the BO-105, the EC 135 and the Super Stallion. Putting my money where my mouth is- support !
Sue

[mmann]

Went back to Nemeth today and bought the BO-105, the EC 135 and the Super Stallion. Putting my money where my mouth is- support !
Sue

Excuse my ignorance but how can you purchase their product if they have posted in a number of flight sim forums that "Nemeth designs ceasing operation due to piracy"? Did they reopen for business?

Regards, Mike Mann

[Aussiecop]

There were several clarification posts, that we are suspending "new" development, we still have an online store and are still providing support for our products currently on the market (with an order number obviously)


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[mmann]

I must have missed the clarification posts; mainly what I noticed were the number of hot under the collar posts.

Regards, Mike Mann

[krazycolin]

I was pretty mad too mate. I am still if the truth be known.

[Aussiecop]

This thread has a pretty good bunch of suggestions, some of which we are looking at, in regards to discounts, w have started running sales etc and I do help fellow simmers out, although I don't publish the things I do behind the scenes I am an avid supporter of the military and the sacrifices they make to keep us safe. I recently got an email from a soldier posted in Iraq who had some issues as he was running on a laptop and fsx and our helos keep him sane.

We have some things like hsi knobs that are activated by the mouse wheel, I didn't want him to have issues being that this was his only
Vice, so I went and bought him a mouse at the store and sent it to him in Iraq.

These are the things that you don't hear developers doing but I am sure happen, everyone can do better as a developer, but we do try to do things to help people as well as sell payware


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[N2056]

I recently got an email from a soldier posted in Iraq who had some issues as he was running on a laptop and fsx and our helos keep him sane.

We have some things like hsi knobs that are activated by the mouse wheel, I didn't want him to have issues being that this was his only Vice, so I went and bought him a mouse at the store and sent it to him in Iraq.

That was a very class thing to do. Thanks for supporting our troops! :salute: