Why was the Nemeth / Piracy thread locked ?

[krazycolin]

Nemeth is not shutting it's doors. They are merely on suspension while an anti-piracy method is found.

We are both working concurrently on finding something that works and is non-invasive for the end-user and that also leaves us with a profit margin that is livable.

[azflyboy]

If the rumors we've heard about MS Flight are true, maybe they'll be able to take care of the piracy issues. Ed and I like the way RoF does it's releases, but of course, that is a much less open ended system than FSX. I do hope Flight is backwards compatible, as I've bought a lot of ORBX add-ons, not mention aircraft, that I hope are able to transfer into the sim.

From what MS has said about Flight, it's going to be using a completely new engine, and likely won't be compatible with anything from FSX.

Personally, if that means they'll actually make a simulator that runs well on hardware available when it's released (that isn't "bleeding edge"), and gets rid of some of the glaring issues with the current engine (like the multi-engine and turboprop problems), I'm all for moving on.

[Francois]

I too do NOT think it will be compatible. They wouldn't have fired the entire old team if they had planned on that ;-)
But we won't have any conformation until some of the secrecy is lifted. The occasional screenshot is not helping us any.

[Paul K]

Krazycolin, I think that given the flightsim community's acute awareness of the damage piracy is doing to our hobby, we'd be prepared to accept some degree of invasive measures, if thats what it took to protect developers profits.

[Francois]

Most programs (games) I know these days use on-line 'checking', i.e. you cannot play them unless you are 'connected'. Especially the ones using the Steam engine, same for many others.

The FS community is one of the oldest and probably most old-fashioned in that regard. Fact remains that quite a large percentage of our known customer base has something 'against' being connected for license issues.

As a publisher or developer spending extra money on such licensing schemes means one has to be fully convinced that it will actually bring in a higher turnover, otherwise it will just cost more than publishing already does.

[Warrant]

Edit: deleted contents due to double post.
Admin's, i seem to have trouble with posting. Every initial posting comes up with a window that looks different then usual, and the cursor/enter button do not seem to work. The only way i can type text normally, as i used to do, is in the editting window after posting.

I run Firefox as browser in a Vista OS.

If i need to upload some examples or screenshots, please let me know.

Are there other people who encounter the same issues?

[Warrant]

Did not know this discussion was still going on, and i'm happy the issue of "steam engine" and other anti-piracy mechanisms have been brought up. I understand and agree mechanisms should be developed to prevent piracy, but the "you have to be online in order to play the game you purchased" method is not preferrable IMHO. Me, for example, am not always situated in environments blessed with internet connection. Yet, games on my own laptop might be my only chance of entertainment and relaxation in certain situations (yes, i'm in the military, and yes, i'm deployed on occasion). With the anti-piracy safety such as Steam, i was and am unable to play a lot of games on my computer once in situations like described above. Yet, i payed for them.......I can think of a lot of other people with similar reasons not to have an internet connection at certain times. I also encountered problems where i did have internet connection, but the connection was too weak or unstabile. I was kicked out of the game so much times it became unplayable.

So, though outdated, FSX on my laptop is the only thing playable when out of internet, of with just a weak connection.

Not a very good option for a $50+ game, is it!?

[michael davies]

I used to give away free commercial aircraft I developed, to people who had helped in some small way, until I was told to stop, beta tester could buy their own finished product I was told!, I didn't listen and still gave away free copies, now that developer owes me $4500 and I'm unlikely to see it (dont ever anyone tell me all pirates are consumers!), so I'm glad I gave all those free planes away, sometimes there is justice in this world, all be it small and brief, bloody expensive mind, but hey, its only money .

[BASys]

dont ever anyone tell me all pirates are consumers!

+1

[Aussiecop]

Well, didn't I miss the boat on this one, . Thank you to everyone who has posted in support in both this and another thread. I didn't post here as I didn't want to be spewing my frustration entirely across the web. I guess it was picked up an posted by a concerned user.

The best part about this situation if there is indeed a silver lining, is the chorus of support from people you don't usually hear from. To all this people we thank you.

I can't possibly touch on all the subjects people have mentioned and I don't want to get to specific as a thread on another forum degenerated into some serious insulting that was totally unwarranted but yes frustration was the root cause of the original thread.

I myself do not make a living from development, but 2 of the other developers do, and it is possible, maybe not here in the USA, but if you live somewhere where the cost of living is a 10th of what we pay it is more than possible.

I am really thankful for the majority of postings here about this subject as they have been constructive, helpful and supportive. We will be back but after a lot of work figuring out an anti piracy solution that as Colin said, protects our investment and does not alienate the existing customer base.

Thanks all


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Penzoil3]

Went back to Nemeth today and bought the BO-105, the EC 135 and the Super Stallion. Putting my money where my mouth is- support !
Sue

[mmann]

Went back to Nemeth today and bought the BO-105, the EC 135 and the Super Stallion. Putting my money where my mouth is- support !
Sue

Excuse my ignorance but how can you purchase their product if they have posted in a number of flight sim forums that "Nemeth designs ceasing operation due to piracy"? Did they reopen for business?

Regards, Mike Mann

[Aussiecop]

There were several clarification posts, that we are suspending "new" development, we still have an online store and are still providing support for our products currently on the market (with an order number obviously)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mmann]

I must have missed the clarification posts; mainly what I noticed were the number of hot under the collar posts.

Regards, Mike Mann

[krazycolin]

I was pretty mad too mate. I am still if the truth be known.

[jeansy]

Krazycolin, I think that given the flightsim community's acute awareness of the damage piracy is doing to our hobby, we'd be prepared to accept some degree of invasive measures, if thats what it took to protect developers profits.

not really i can think back in 2003/04 when i was first made aware of it with alphasim and their methods of security, this made most websites, little has changed in piracy since then nor it will in the future

its like anything cybercrime hasnt reached its peak, its only a matter of time where even the new aerosoft key it cracked, if Microsoft cant protect their products how will a little game dev will

my view on this hasnt changed from the locked thread and it will never

all these threads do is just open old wounds and drag things on, and highlight the fact its out there for the new young user, as soon he reads thats its out there on torrent, he will go actively searching for it, what you have set out to try and stop you have advertised and encouraged

colin i understand your frustation, i do hear you, your models are that detailed theyre a right pain in the ass to work with when painting but IMO, threads this shouldnt be posted at general flightsiming sites but left for the individual devs site forum, it draws negative attention the the sim, and discourages people to read threads. for instance lastnight at hover control, ive received 31pms in the past 24hrs saying thank god thats over even from one person who i was very surprised to hear it from for a topic that was locked regarding same topic, people are sick of hearing about it, and fills up the forums with the same stuff every month , and if people want to show their support, they can always go to the developers site and show it there,

if anything a short post about the complaint and a link to the devs site, then it should be locked, so it doesnt get heated and drag things out here. Ive seen to many good guys fight among themselves over this, I know Dean isnt to impressed with me about my tac-less blunt comments, but that hasnt changed my views on him as im sitting waving my fist at the screen waiting for his tbm.

thankyou Mick, François and over devs out there that accept that its a fact of life instead of dragging it out & Helldiver you old salt, your still a gentleman


i give it another month until this topic surfaces in another form or shape, anyway has the TBM been released yet its due today?

[paulb]

Before this thread is locked - which by the way I think that it should be (as suggested by jeansy), here are a couple of constructive suggestions -

1. I think that all developers should follow the FTX approach - ie you have to show your purchase information before you can ask for help on a support matter.

2. Developers should find a way to ensure that updates are only available to purchasers that can show their purchase information.

Lastly, can I appeal to anyones sense of decency and standards?

All FSX producers/developers are a part of a 'cottage' industry nowadays. ie no-one makes much money from any purchases, but the small earnings available might be very important to some developers. IF YOU DONT BUY THE PRODUCTS, THEN THE DEVELOPERS WILL STOP DEVELOPING. If that matters to you - even a little bit - then buy something. :salute:

[skyhawka4m]

Since all of this has happened I've shown my support by purchasing the BO-105, and just the other night the MD500....both of which are awesome to fly. I'm hoping for more repaints for the 500 though...otherwise.....having fun in my ND helo's.

[skyhawka4m]

Isn't there a way to hide a code, or something minor on each aircreaft so that if something shows up on a priate site you'll know right away who it is? maybe a serial number hidden somewhere? Minor changes to the model...something that is not obvious? How about a limited run serial numbered aircraft? Limit sales to say 4 or 5 hundred? I don't know if that many sell but I'm just trying to get a point across.

[michael davies]

Isn't there a way to hide a code, or something minor on each aircreaft so that if something shows up on a priate site you'll know right away who it is? maybe a serial number hidden somewhere? Minor changes to the model...something that is not obvious? How about a limited run serial numbered aircraft? Limit sales to say 4 or 5 hundred? I don't know if that many sell but I'm just trying to get a point across.

Did that with the Seaking way back in FS9, buried a serial number in the Hex code of the mdl, it's not rocket science you only need a four digit code to cover most sales, rarely if ever will a model exceed 9999 sales. Problem is if you sell 500 you have to compile 500 individual mdls and you have to have a developer with the will to implement such a strategy, but I added serials to the first copy and then the updates differently from the betas, narrowed it down a little but as a third party developer for a bigger concern I was toothless, nothing gets in the way of the cash flow you see, shame, could have locked it down years ago for a little back bone up front and patience from consumers.

Having said that, during that time period consumers were very anti anything that even mildly impinged on their rights and instant gratification to download, you wouldn't believe the hate mail if their download took more then 5 mins to complete!. So sadly I shed no tears for developers who in the past just wanted to milk the cash cow as quick and fast as possible after release and now cry foul at torrents, they made their bed, they can lie in it, if we'd started something back then then maybe the issue would not be as bad today

Maybe now is a good time to revisit such tactics, but I suspect the cash flow will still come above security I'm sad to say.

[JAllen]

I worked a project involving 'Jolly Green' many years ago and have had a small interest in trying to fly one in FSX. Closest model is CH-53 of Nemeth but never acted on a purchase. I suck horribly with helo's you see, but what the heck, I now have a pseudo Jolly Green in the hangar next to my old beat up Huey I've had since its release, also Nemeth BTW.

Now my FSX hangar is only short a couple aircraft representing all my experiences in my 22 year career.

Jim

[Bjoern]

Down where we do our skiing, people over 65 get a discount for the lifts (used to be 60). Maybe we should do something like that for old-age pensioners in the FSX industry too.

About half of our customers would fall into that category I'd say. :-)

If old people get a bonus, students and the disabled should get one, too! ;P


What about an experiment?

You throw a payware plane out with the invested work hours openly and clearly visisble on the page.

The customers can pay anything from 1 to 50€ for it, but, upon purchase must state their age, occupation and why they paid 1 or 50€s for it.

Granted, it would be just like donationware, but you'd get more of a customer<-> designer feedback and an impression of your average customer.

Also, what about delivering add-ons in components?
(Same as Rise Of Flight does with their entire sim.)
The total cost for everything would still be the regular price (40€s), but it would allow users to save money by leaving out the 2D panel or VC or the tons of repaints or the custom sounds.

PC gaming follows this route with its DLC craze, but it makes perfect sense if you consider that we're living in an age of individualization anyways.

[krazycolin]

I have a better one:

I will sell you the afterburners for 2 bucks, the landing gear for 5, the wings and fuselage for 10, the pilot figure for free, the paint kit for a buck, the VC for 10, all steam gauges for 10, any glass for 15-20 and the rest for free... oh.. Sound and a manual for 5 bucks.

I'm not even sure what all this adds up too.

[Meshman]

I'm not even sure what all this adds up too.

$63.00, if you go full price on the glass. A little to steep for my wallet, unless you give an AARP discount?


There are solutions to the problem, if people will expand the thought process a little. Stopping all piracy may never happen, but setting up some deterrence will help to slow things down. IMO, of course.

[AndyE1976]

There are solutions to the problem, if people will expand the thought process a little. Stopping all piracy may never happen, but setting up some deterrence will help to slow things down. IMO, of course.

Since I saw this thread start up I've been thinking about this quite a bit and whilst I can't claim to have any wild great solutions, the one thing that did occur to me was that there are a load of smart people on here who all have one thing in common - we want to support developers developing for our hobby.

Perhaps a more positive spin on the piracy thread would be to work collectively to find something that would work, perhaps not against the most dedicated hackers, but for the majority.

Am I being too naive to think that we could come up with something that worked for the majority of users, didn't cost developers much (if anything) to use and would make the pirates job a real PITA?