Killing Our Best Friends

**TigerPackLeader** · April 18th, 2011, 08:25

The popularity of my dog related repaints leads me to believe that a lot of people here love dogs and may presently have treasured canine companions of their own. We've got a fight brewing up here in Nova Scotia for a breed specific ban on certain dog types, most notably (as usual) Pit Bulls and anything that remotely looks like one.

This is something I'm viciously opposing and wish to bring to the attention of like minded SOH members. Please read today's article on my blog as well as the associated links it contains here.

Randy

**kilo delta** · April 18th, 2011, 08:46

I'm a life long dog lover and know of/have known many families with Pit Bulls,Staffordshire Bulls,Rottweilers etc etc as family pets. None have ever had any issue with these breeds in a family environment.
Would I ever consider having one of these breeds in my home around my children?....NO.
I don't care how safe these dogs can appear, if they have the ability to kill or seriously maim my children,however unlikely that is to happen...then they will not be welcome in my home.
Yes,I know that any breed of dog can maim or kill a child....but I reckon it'd be easier to fend off a border collie rather than a pit bull.

Just my 2c.

**stiz** · April 18th, 2011, 09:31

agreed with kilo. Far easier to fight off a collie/lab/poodle etc. It is worth noteing that pitbulls were bread for the sole purpose for fighting bulls for sport, then when that was banned, fighting each other. I know the dogs only as good as the owner etc but any dog with that sort of genetics in them has to be questioned if you ask me.

Also pitpulls have been banned for a while around here, cant say i've missed em in anyway!

**Tako_Kichi** · April 18th, 2011, 10:53

I strongly dislike pitbulls as a breed based on their genetics and the fact that history has proven time and again that they can flip from gentle pet to full blown killer at the drop of a hat. Here in Ontario we had a law introduced requiring all pitbull owners to have their dogs neutered so that in a few years the breed should die out. However, certain irresponsible owners either refused or couldn't be bothered to follow the law and as a consequence we still have pitbulls and pitbull crosses long after they should have started to disappear.

We used to live in a 'duplex' (for Euro's that's a NA house that's split into upper and lower apartments rather than a side by side split like a 'semi' over there) and the people in the upper apartment had a border collie/lab cross. They later added a pitbull/boxer cross. Needless to say we were not happy as we had two young girls at home at the time and the people upstairs had a toddler. I was sitting inside one day when I heard a blood curdling scream from outside and I dashed out to discover that my oldest daughter had been mauled by the neighbour's dog and it had made a real mess of her right hand. The dog that mauled her was the border collie/lab cross. The pitbull was upstairs (thankfully) as I hate to think what would have happened if that beast had got in on the act too!

I am an animal lover and at the time of the above incident we had a yellow Lab and two cats. We currently have two cats, an English Springer Spaniel, a rabbit and a fish but I will not/cannot tolerate the acceptance of dangerous dog breeds when there are better choices available. There are a number of naturally aggressive dog breeds (not just pitbulls) that need curtailing IMHO.

Incidentally I was born and raised in the UK in Staffordshire, the original home of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and I know for a fact that they are normally a very laid-back and people (especially children) friendly breed. However, they can and have been trained to be vicious especially by young thugs who think it's 'cool' and 'macho' to walk around with a mean tempered dog wearing a heavy studded collar or a chain heavy enough to hold back a battleship!

***OBIO*** · April 18th, 2011, 11:59

Here I go climbing up on one of few soap boxes I have....dogs and breed specific laws.

First off, the American Pit Bull Terrier is a true breed, recognized by a number of breed associations. The "pit bull" is not a true breed....the term "pit bull" is used by media, legislators and such to discuss any dog that has the physical appearance of any of the following legitimate breeds: American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Terrier, Bull Terrier, American Bulldog, and so on and so forth.

Secondly, the American Pit Bull Terrier was NOT bred to fight bulls, nor was it bred to fight other dogs. It was bred in the southern US states to work with cattle...namely to protect the farmer from attacking bulls. When a bull would charge after a farmer, the American Pit Bull Terrier would protect the farmer from the bull by jumping up, clamping onto the nose of the bull, and holding onto the bull's nose until the farmer was clear and safe. That is what the American Pit Bull Terrier was bred to do. It was a farm dog.

Unfortunately, then as now, men felt that they could make themselves more manly by fighting their dogs against bulls, bears and other dogs. This fighting had nothing to do with the dog...it had everything to do with the scum bags who taught them to fight in this manner.

Any breed of dog has the potential to be attack a person. Any breed of dog that is poorly bred, poorly trained, poorly socialized, poorly handled can be a potential attacker. The only dog that I have ever been attacked by was a Chihuahua....a rather nasty bug eyed freak owned by this little old lady who let her dog out on me because I was walking past her house on the public sidewalk. I have been a dog person my entire life, and have been around nearly every breed of dog, including dozens and dozens and dozens of the dogs commonly listed in the Vicious Breeds legislation: American Pit Bull Terrier, Am-Staff, Staff, Rotts, Dobermans, German Shephards, Cane Corsos and so forth and so on. None of these "vicious" breeds have ever attacked me...but that little bug eyed Chihuahua, who was poorly socialized, poorly trained, poorly handled did attack me. Granted it did not do a lot of damage to me....other than a few small puncture woulds on my ankles that did get infected.

My sis-in-law's ex-husband's mom had two of the most vicious, poorly trained, poorly socialized dogs I have ever seen. One was lhasa apso and the other was a pekinese/shih tzu cross. These dogs were completely unsocialized, completely untrained. They were so aggressive and bite prone that the owner had to keep them in wire cages all the time....that is were they lived...in 3 foot by 3 foot wire kennels in the living room. The few times that I went to her house, these two dogs were literally chewing at the wire cages trying to get out. These were the most savage dogs I have ever seen...and they really should have been euthanized as they were beyond any hope of becoming family pets.

Passing legislation to ban "vicious" breeds is fool-hearty as any breed of dog can be a vicious dog, any breed of dog can attack, maim, kill. It is all on how the individual dog is bred, trained, socialized and handled.

Two years ago, Deb and I took our two dogs to the vet for their yearly heart worm testing. Brutus is a 12-pound Chihuahua/Jack Russell terrier mix and Hazel is an 8-pound Chihuahua. We walk into the vet's waiting room and there are 5 or 6 other dogs there, including two American Pit Bull Terriers. Our two dogs, the smallest ones in the room, were the most annoying! Brutus, bless his little head, LOVES people....absolutely LOVES people....he wanted to go say hi to everyone...and with his Jack Russell Terrier energy level...he can be really annoying. Hazel is not as out going with strangers....and she is Daddy's girl...so as I was doing the check in and getting Brutus on the scale to weigh him...Hazel was throwing a fit because she was not close to me.

The two "pit bulls" in the room? The older male...one of the most beautiful dogs I have ever seen....simply lay at his owner's feet and took my two annoying dogs in stride. The younger one...a female at around 9 months....well, she was still a puppy and wanted to play and explore, but when the gal holder her leash gave her the "down" command, that young APBT lay down and stayed down. Those two American Pit Bull Terriers were obviously well trained, well handled and well socialized.

And they were well bred...they were both examples of what the APBT should be. The male was maybe 65/70 pounds....American Pit Bull Terriers were not, are not, huge dogs...they are smallish dogs with a lot of muscle...but they are not meant to be the 150 pound monster headed things that you see in Rap Music videos...those are not American Pit Bull Terriers..those are ego boosters bred by the same type of men who originally began fighting the APBT all those years ago.

Let me climb down off my soap box before I end up writing an entire book.

OBIO

***Navy Chief*** · April 18th, 2011, 12:46

I haven't been around pit bulls that much, so I can't relate any personal experiences.

But just about everyone on this forum has read the numerous posts I've made about my Rottweiler, "Chief", and videos I have posted of him.

Rottweilers have, in many cases, an undeserved reputation of being vicious.

Just like Obio said, it's truly (in my opinion also) how you raise your animal, and socialize it.

My beloved Chief was extremely well socialized from the very beginning. We used to take him to the local flea market on weekends, where a LOT of people would pet him, and he got used to being around all types of folks.

I really think it is wrong to have a crusade against an entire breed of dog. Just not right.

I had to sign a waiver for my property insurance, because of Chief. I don't care. I know he is nothing but a 130 pound baby, and loves everyone....except possums, that is.

NC

**Wing_Z** · April 18th, 2011, 13:41

All dogs, I am told, are descended from wolves.
And all are bred to some purpose.
The attack dogs are selected to carry through their mission, despite any distraction, like being trampled, or torn to bits.
Bulldogs seeing the red mist are physically incapable of unclamping their jaws, a bucket of water is the only way to undo them.

Most of these dogs are not normally particularly vicious, so that the owners can handle them on a daily basis. You will always hear stories of little babies clambering over huge, gentle, soppy ol’ Pit Bulls.
But when triggered, they are bred to be unstoppable.
All the terriers are like that, we have a little Australian Rabbit Terrier, and she’ll go down a burrow no matter what’s in there, and emerge bloody but triumphant.

Sweet, eh?

The fighting pit bulls and other “fringe breeds” have an unfortunate issue: their “hair trigger” can be tripped accidently, and randomly.
We had a spate of pit bull attacks on children some years ago in NZ (always in the face, and always horrible) and the breed is now quite rightly banned.

The simple reason is that they are what they are, and owners cannot be relied on to know what they are. Too late, they will discover that they are not controllable, and the damage they can inflict is simply unacceptable.

There is no reason, or excuse, to breed these animals.

**Tako_Kichi** · April 18th, 2011, 14:14

Originally Posted by Wing_Z

The fighting pit bulls and other “fringe breeds” have an unfortunate issue: their “hair trigger” can be tripped accidently, and randomly.

This is the key factor behind the problems with pit bulls and other fighting breeds. They can and do go 'rogue' with the least provocation (or even no provocation at all at times).

Over the centuries many different breeds have come and gone for one reason or another. In the case of the American Pit Bull Terrier (and like breeds and cross breeds) they were bred for a purpose and that purpose no longer exists (at least in urban areas) and so there is no need for the breed to exist either. There are far more better suited dogs for urban life.

**beana51** · April 18th, 2011, 15:32

2009 pit bull dog bite statistics are now available

Pit bull victim data

report shows:

318 pit bull attacks reported by the media
388 people were bit in these attacks
64% of the dog bite victims suffered severe injuries
36% of the dog bite victims suffered minor injuries
4% of the victims had one or more body parts severed -- 16 severed parts in all
2% of the victims died as a result of the pit bull mauling

Profile of Victims

42% of the dog bites were to the 21-54 age group
24% of the pit bull attacks were to the 5-11 age group
13% of the pit bull attacks were to the 12-20 age group.
The age group 0-4 suffered 84% of the most severe injuries* most heartbreaking!

Pit bulls are Instinctive KILLERS...The Presa Canarios breed being the worst

The GOOD news is no reports reports of MAN biting DOGS!....That would be a greater threat to our lil friends..DO IT??...BOW! WOW!...<label for="rb_iconid_24">

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**Major_Spittle** · April 18th, 2011, 15:55

Many types of dogs can be dangerous and a person should be responsible for their pet. I owned and bred a few border collies for working farms. One particular border collie I had was trained on sheep and had a champion blood line. She was damn smart and she was raised very close with my two boys ages 3 and 7. After training her on sheep and raising her in the country for 3 years I had to move into town but this dog was WAY too sensitive to movement, territorial, and aggressive to have around the neighborhood kids and such.

I gave her to an elderly farmer I knew that needed a dog to work sheep.

Fact is though that it only takes a couple/three generations to breed VERY aggressive dogs. This dog was a champion designed to be aggressive, quick, sensitive, and smart. Perfect farm dog that could work livestock. I personally could never see her killing a person, but she would herd kids and nip their heels if they didn't listen and ran from her. What ended it was the neighbor reached through the cedar fence around our property and she bit her hand. The neighbor said the dog gave her warnings but she didn't think the dog would bite. This is actually a very dangerous sign in a dog and I wasn't going to wait for the neighbors 10lb poodle to get attacked on our property or for a kid to get bit hard while wrestling with my young son on the grass.

Go to a sheep dog trial and you will meet a lot of very dangerous dogs, border collies. Go to a ghetto and you will find a lot of very dangerous Pittbulls bread for guarding/fighting/macho dogness. People need to be held responsible. But I understand why people would outlaw a 50+ lb dog breed that is know to have many bloodlines that are agressive toward people.

**T Square** · April 18th, 2011, 16:44

Many types of dogs can be dangerous and a person should be responsible for their pet. I owned and bred a few border collies for working farms. One particular border collie I had was trained on sheep and had a champion blood line. She was damn smart and she was raised very close with my two boys ages 3 and 7. After training her on sheep and raising her in the country for 3 years I had to move into town but this dog was WAY too sensitive to movement, territorial, and aggressive to have around the neighborhood kids and such.

Agree 100% when I was 8 years old my brother (2 years older than me) were playing football at a friends house. The people in the house next door had a German Shepard that we had been told to stay away from. This dog was very agressive and territorial. Our football went over the peoples fence so my brother went to get it. This German Shepard was in the house so my brother thought it would be ok. The Shepard jumped through a secound floor window and attacked my brother. My friends mother beat the Shepard with a board until it let go and backed off. It took over 80 stiches to fix my brothers arms and legs. We had gone in that backyard many times when the shepard was there and never had a problem, the one difference this time, his owner was not present. To this day I will not approach an unattended dog, but I lovem, got me 3 right now a Jack Russell and 2 Rat Terriers and they are a hoot to watch especially with my 2 year old grandson. I watch my Grandson during the day, we have these three pillows the dogs sleep on. At nap time they all four curl up on those pillows and nap. It is a true joy to see the happiness they pass to each other.

**pilottj** · April 18th, 2011, 16:56

I think many of those dogs are mean because they are trained to be mean. I pet sit for my cousin sometimes who has a female pitbull. She is one of the friendliest dogs I have met, all she wants to do is lick your face and cuddle up with you when you sleep. She certianly is strong tho, while walking she can really pull but she just loves attention. Matter of fact my cousin keeps her in the house when she is gone because her dog is a popular one to steal and turned into a dog fighter or a bait dog.

***Willy*** · April 18th, 2011, 20:41

I was raised with collies and border collies and yes they can be aggressive. Bur on the other hand, one of the best and most loving dogs I ever had was a female border collie. She'd bark, but wouldn't bite a bisquit. I lost her in a shooting accident and I still miss her a lot.

Now, I keep Minature Pinschers. A lot of bark but we've yet to have one bite.

**AndyG43** · April 19th, 2011, 02:22

Originally Posted by Wing_Z

All dogs, I am told, are descended from wolves.

Yep, and they are, therefore, pack animals; so if a dog is properly socialised and 'understands' that the owner is the Alpha male/female and where it's own place in the pack is (i.e. right at the bottom), then all is well and good. It's one of the reasons why lapdogs can be so damn vicious, they are everybody's little darling & spoilt rotten, i.e. they think they are the Alpha!!

It's why I'm a cat person; dogs have owners, cats have staff - I can't remember the last time I read a newspaper report of a child being savaged by a moggy!!

**stiz** · April 19th, 2011, 03:11

Originally Posted by AndyG43

It's why I'm a cat person; dogs have owners, cats have slaves

fixed that sentance for ya!

**AndyG43** · April 19th, 2011, 03:13

Originally Posted by stiz

fixed that sentance for ya!

***wombat666*** · April 19th, 2011, 04:01

I'm not a fan of 'Attack Dogs' but I'm really big on the proposal to licence 'Dog Owners' and not the animals, if one has a dog then one is responsible for his/her actions and should be held liable.
We are 'owned' by a pack (6) of Beagles, they are our family but I am the 'Alpha Male'.
I'm not sure how Sofie fits in, 'Alpha Female' perhaps??
Whatever, the hounds obey her without question!!!
'Gun Dogs' and 'Working Dogs' are the easiest to train, discipline and socialize, they respond to orders and are eager to please.
I've never had to strike any of our dogs aside from a gentle tap with a rolled newspaper during puppy school, as our pack respond to voice commands, love praise and hate being told off.
There are no 'Bad' dogs, only 'Bad' owners.

**flaminghotsauce** · April 19th, 2011, 05:33

My relationship with dogs, as posted on my Facebook account:

As a rural mail carrier, I encounter dogs on a regular basis. Whodathunkit? Dogs, rural, hmm. By the way, say "rural" out loud a few times. Doesn't that make you feel retarded? Who invented that word? Anyway, dogs are like the mushroom guys in Mario. They're always around, always trying to get me. My car, being unable to spin/jump and crush them into oblivion, is quite unwieldy in it's maneuverability. It's a daunting challenge to get around some of them and retain what dignity I have.

Should we try to understand a dog's motive? Are they merely following their genetic code that hard wires them into chasing everything that moves thinking it's a cow? Should we feel badly for their retardedness? Were they oppressed by a poor family unit as mere pups and are acting out now? Are there now Crips and Bloods of the canine variety?

Nah.

Dogs are stupid. Chasing a car is a redneck trick for a dog. If I spoke dog, I'll bet I could hear them way back there, hiding in the tall grass behind the mobile home, saying to their buddies "hold my beer" right before they come charging out on their four wheelers. Some try for extra points by trying to bite the tire that feeds them. These efforts are pretty high scoring affairs if they are successful, but not many score points in this fashion. The second highest scoring opportunity is to actually get out in front of the car and try to slow it down. The least scoring affairs are the "group chase" and the "try to bite the arm as it goes to the mailbox." Oh, and there's also a point if you have to get out of the car. If they are able to convince you that they are happy, harmless dogs long enough for you to break eye contact while say, interacting while the home owner, they can sneak up from behind for a leg score. I don't know how many points this one is worth. Yet.

I've developed a couple of methods to try to avoid them:

The "Pretend They Aren't There" method: This was my first attempt which has come to be probably the worst method. It should be called "Where is my rubber dog stamp and ink pad?" Four dogs, including the County Commissioners dog on the County Commissioner's private 1/2 mile driveway, have gotten spin/jumped in this method. Not effective. I give it two stars, only because it's the most time efficient. Otherwise one star.

The "Herd THEM Into The Weeds" method: As the dogs come running up from the yard, their share of the road has to be minimized. They are trying to herd my bovine mobile, so I return the favor by moving toward the edge of the road. The edge of the road that they're on. This has good and bad aspects. First, if successful, it will move the dog into the less aggressive running path, and force them to jump the clumps over in the weeds. It's fun, entertaining to watch, and simple physics! All that college wasn't wasted on me. The bad part about this method is the "OH, the mail carrier appears drunk" swerve, as I drive from side to side of the road. This is a good swerve when used out on the side of the highway, as I can influence traffing to actually USE the passing lane to, y'know, pass. I can see them moving over over a half-mile back in my mirror when I use the swerve. I get extra points for that. The other drivers think I'm not paying attention, when I'm herding THEM. Oh, I'm talking about dogs though. Dogs don't drink, as far as I know, at least that early in the morning. Three stars, with extra credit for multiple dogs getting herded. Lose a point if the home owner watches the swerve. And owns a shotgun.

Finally, my newest method. The "Keep Stopping" method: They come running expecting a good race, a fair race, with no cheap punches, biting off ears, spitting, etc. and I stop.

And I wait.

Then when I accelerate, I go gently, until I see them make a move to run. Then I stop.

I wait.

If they're close enough to the car, I give 'em the best Darth Vadar stare I can muster. No, wait. He wears a helmet. Okay, my best Klingon glare. I accelerate, stop. accelerate, stop. I keep lathering, rinsing and repeating until I've washed those dogs right out of my hair. They get confounded, confused, they look at each other, and wonder whether I'm the redneck that would use a leaf blower in the house. They forget to bark. When used effectively, they end up standing beside the road, drooling, muttering to themselves, and losing their self respect and what dignity they had. What a bunch of major league losers! They are often seen falling into alcoholic binges and quitting the Crips or Bloods. Many need counseling or heavier therapy, and drugs.

FIVE STARS!

**beana51** · April 19th, 2011, 06:01

I have raised ,Dobermans,German shepherds,Rottweilers,Beagles,and Yorkshire Terriers.for money!...the Yorke being the most vocal...all little things have big mouths....the Rotty ,was a challenge,they do not turn their eyes away,always testing you...they look at you directly.Dobermans today have had their reputation breed out of them...The Shepard's,they can be an Attack dog,or trained to lead a blind person.Beagles are the nicest !...but the PIT BULLS,those whose linage has been for fighting,are never to be trusted...The Stats show that......."The call Of the wild by Jack London,It was The Law of The Club and The Fang.....and if you remember it was a Pit Bull,which almost killed "Buck'......Yes We have the club,but they got the Fangs!.....and with PIT BULLS,they can clamp on and not let go no matter what........Of course this is a touchy subject...many people have and love their Pit bull dogs.....and strangely ,its they who get harmed by them.....and little babies....

But they thrive,in rural,inner-city,some wealthy places,where Dog fighting goes on today.That along with Cockfighting.,Rodeo's, and Frog jumping Contests!....like it or not It was part, America,and Briton.And for those of us who like Prize fighting, heavy contact sports,we can sometimes sound hypocritical!.We Remember Churchill's BULL DOG,and Pattons ,WIMPY PIT BULL..at least some of us do!
....."LET THE GAMES BEGIN" <label for="rb_iconid_19">

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SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND!

**pfflyers** · April 19th, 2011, 11:52

This is one of those touchy subjects where some of us have to agree to disagree.

As a life-long dog-lover/owner I would have no hesitation in telling you MY dog is the sweetest, gentlest, most loving dog there ever was, and it's only OTHER people that have mean dogs.

However, I have seen my gentle, loving dogs snap on occasion. Luckily no maulings have ever been committed by a dog of mine. The thing that is scary is not being able to predict what was going to set them off.

I would never want to tell someone they had to get rid of their dog because it was the wrong breed, but I think most people would love a lab just as much as a pitbull if there were no pitbulls available when they were looking for a new puppy.

Just my opinion.

**Wing_Z** · April 19th, 2011, 14:27

Originally Posted by AndyG43

...dogs have owners, cats have staff

Cat owners are even worse than dog owners, for transposing their own notions onto their pets...
When a cat doesn't come when called, it is not being superior, it really just doesn't get it...same with being on the wrong side of the door - it just can't figure it out!
Ask any vet, cats have the tiniest cerebral cortex! You can even simulate a cat's brain!

I can't remember the last time I read a newspaper report of a child being savaged by a moggy!!

We have a huge and beautiful Birman cat who is top of the pecking order in our house - this includes all other 4-footed ones, and, especially, humans.

He was on my lap the other day, and suddenly whipped round and started gnawing on my finger!
Take a look at a cat's teeth: they are sharp as sewing machine needles, and have the same action.
They slice through flesh, easily.

After a while I decided to leave, and jumped up with the 20-pound moggy dangling from the bloodied shreds of my right index finger.
Eventually it fell off, I went into shock and had to have an anti-tetanus shot and a full course of antibiotics.

I took it to the vet having decided it must die.
The vet matter-of-factly explained what had happened:
There was a small scab on its shoulder perhaps from a catfight, which must have been a bit itchy, and it couldn't reach.
When I stroked it, I must have disturbed the scab.
The cat leaned round to nibble at the irritation, found my finger, but got no relief, so tried even harder!
The more it bit, the more the scab got irritated by my desperate clutching!

The vet refused to kill it, explained about the cortex thing, and sent me off with a scolding to be more careful, and also watch the cat's diet as it is over weight.

SO cats are really stupid - dangerous too - and I have the scars to prove it.

**OleBoy** · April 19th, 2011, 14:59

I'm an animal lover and have been all my life. There are good and bad in both animal, and owner. Like any child (figuratively speaking) they learn from the adults that display it and continue to grow on, and from that while building instinct. If the animal has abnormal behavior or displays itself in a (I'll say) crazy fashion, odds are that symptom grows to a more noticeable state throughout life. Humans, as we are, same thing. Psycho is as psycho does. Period. This is in ALL forms of life as we know it today, and we have no control over it. So, an inbred, is an inbred, is an inbred. A progressive cycle that has ruined both man and animal throughout the whole general society, and all forms of life as we know it.

That's my2cents

I have six dogs

**AndyG43** · April 19th, 2011, 15:37

Originally Posted by Wing_Z

SO cats are really stupid - dangerous too - and I have the scars to prove it.

Actually, I'd agree cats can be vicious, but they're not bred to damage like many dog breeds. When my son was small we had a ginger tom who put up with endless indignities, which I doubt would have been tolerated by any breed of dog.

But stupid, not sure about that!