SOH P-61 project

[warchild]

No worries about hijacking Don.. You see, its real easy to take a single plane and put it under a microscope and rip the guts out of it, but no matter how deep you look into it, you can never ever hope to gain any real understanding of it till you see the world it occupied.. So what do Strega Bear and Dago red have to do with a P-61?? Lots..
When i was building the Iris p-40 i came across a memo from Allison Detroit to some field commander in Africa, giving him their blessing on pushing the manifold pressure of those engines up to 62 inches i believe.. That was a wake up call for me.. You see, back then, the crew chiefs on almost every plane there was, did "everything" they could to make sure their plane was going to get their pilot back home in one piece with as little work as possible to be done on the plane afterwards.. Lazy mans logic.. But the poignant truth of the matter is that, there were no stock planes in world war two. Every single one of them was tweaked twisted or modified in some way. Whatever it took to make it better than what it was when they had been given to them.. The P-61 was no exception, and sixty years later the competition between the P-61 and Mossie is STILL heavily debated and argued over.. Strega, Bear, Red and all the others, grew out of that environment. They are as much a part of the legacy of the P-61 as the A-37, Ac-119, AC-130 and A-10 are. It isnt hijacking. Its opening a door to see a much bigger world.

[warchild]

I'm beginning to appreciate why the military was worried about this plane overshooting its intended targets, and the reason they put spoilers on the C model.. Figuring out how to slow this thing down without changing the rest of the plane is turning out to be extremely challenging.. Being over 7000 pounds heavier than a B-25 and with about the same drag as a P-38, this thing makes full use of newtons first law.. Its a hell bound freight train with wings, and i'm beginning to think that nothing can slow it down..

[PRB]

Just finished reading a book by an A-20 driver named Joseph Rutter in the Pacific called Wreaking Havoc (Havoc, get it?) I love books like this, first person accounts of what it was like to actually be there. He didn't get to the war until 1944, but his story is no less fascinating than those who were there from the start. His unit, the 312TH Bomb Group, moved up to the Philippines in late 1944, after the Leyte landings in October. It's there that he and his shipmates got their first look at the big P-61 Black Widow. He was not impressed. He thought it looked “ungainly” and too big to be of much use as a fighter, not to mention his distrust of the “fancy pants” technology that purported to make this new ship a so-called “night fighter.” He described a night in which he and fellow pilots were gathered around a radio listening to a P-61 crew and a ground station as it tried to vector the Widow onto a Japaneses bomber droning over the field. His account was kind of funny. They were all making jokes about the P-61's inability to find the target, despite the ground station's unflagging attempt to make it happen. At one point the P-61 pilot was heard saying he had the target in sight, which resulted in a cheer from the 312TH BG kibitzers gathered around the radio. Next, they all saw a bright fireball appear in the sky, to which they again cheered. Then, the P-61 pilot was heard relaying that his left engine had just exploded, and caught on fire, and that he was returning home, causing another enthusiastic cheer from from the 312TH BG sidelines! You gotta love it!

[warchild]

:::LOL:: i do love it.. Laughed even harder when i saw a pic of the A-20 with crewmen on her.. That thing was HUGE..

[warchild]

No real surprises in this one.. I adjusted the roll moment downward to give more control over the amount the plane rolls when you jink the stick.. Also adjusted pitch rate damping upward to help with keeping the nose from pitching up as easily as it was doing.. everything else is pretty much the same..
)Pam

[N2056]

At the end of the weekend festivities...:salute:

Attachment 20457

[warchild]

yayyyyyy.. America's hundred Thousand came today .. They called the crew Nacelle "Bulky and Lumpy" .. Bahh.. Its gorgeous. Ok OK, so from the side it DOES resemble a turtle with its head sticking out of the shell, but that just adds to its charm .. Going through all the charts and data and finding areas to focus more intently on. My new throttle quadrants arrived yesterday, and although by the end of the eveningi still wasnt able to set them up exactly as i wanted them because of the difference between their analog signal back to the computer and the X-52s digital signal, i was still able to configure them in a satisfactory way. The only thing i cant do is reduce power on one engine at a time, which is fine as i still have full prop and mixture control..
Theres a ton of detailing yet to be done on the flight modeling. This new book ( which is impressively well done ) and all the other data we've been gathering from around the globe will help me to pinpoint some exact figures and make those changes.. This is gonna get real good ..
Pam

[OleBoy]

At the end of the weekend festivities...:salute:

That looks mighty im press ive

[robcap]

At the end of the weekend festivities...:salute:

NICE!

[warchild]

I'm not sure that a picture can describe a flight model. Nor am i certain that even if it could, one picture taken at any given moment in a flight would be suitable.. But...
Lots of changes in this version update coming up today or tonight.. It's a major version update so once again we find ourselves leapfrogging from version 3.1 to version 4.0.
The CG has been moved back, and the CL sits a few inches behind it. Lateral and longitudinal stability is rock solid but not a rock.. she doesnt fly on rails..
Theres been a lot o changes in this coming version. about twenty altogether. Its not exact yet, but it's getting there..
Apologies for the size of the pic. I have no way to resize it at the moment.. The numbers on the panel explain everything else..
Pam

[OleBoy]

You must be semi-retired, single, or bored stiff. You really get into this type of stuff. Not meaning that in a derogatory way of course.

[warchild]

You must be semi-retired, single, or bored stiff. You really get into this type of stuff. Not meaning that in a derogatory way of course.

Completely retired and disabled.. .. Actually more retired and just plain lazy than disabled.. i can still walk to the kitchen and make a pot of coffee :;chuckles:: Bad lungs.. outside of a little TV and a bunch of video games making flight models is all i do, and the only reason for the video games is because my brain gets tired after a few hours and my math starts slipping. Too many mistakes can be made.. So i go kill a few monsters instead ::lol:;..

[warchild]

Theres a new readme file also.. i dont know if the speeds and rpms quoted in it are accurate to the manual. I compiled them from my own experience and expect they will need to be changed as we move forward. But at this moment, all major changes are in place ( havent i said that before though?? ) and nothing to do but polish it up. Still, that will take a good while to do.

Qote after quote of pilot comments says that you can fly the real bird with two fingers on the controls, so thats how i set it up.. Set your sensitivities to max and your null zones to zero..
Enjoy
Pam

[fliger747]

Be back to do some looking again soon. Coming along nicely. Glad you got Hunner't Thou, a great reference!

The two fingers would be for straight and level flight, max roll still took a 90 lb force or some such! Typical fighter control loadings in pitch were about 10 lbper G.

Cheers: T

[warchild]

Be back to do some looking again soon. Coming along nicely. Glad you got Hunner't Thou, a great reference!

The two fingers would be for straight and level flight, max roll still took a 90 lb force or some such! Typical fighter control loadings in pitch were about 10 lbper G.

Cheers: T

It'll be good to have you home.. .. Have missed ya.. Guess i forgot to tell folks about needing more than two fingers for anything but straight flight.

Been working on th table for yaw vs mach to adjust the rudder response, but i've got a feeling theres more than that table involved. It'll take a while for me to get that dialed in.

The only number left in the basic dimensional set that may not be exact is the prop diameter. there seems to be some disagreement between reported data on it. Some data places it at being 13 feet wide and other data places it at 12'2". I suppose the difference could be between the Curtiss Electric and the Hamilton Standard props they used on different versions. I also know that removing that 8 inches can make a hell of a difference in performance. Still, the Hamilton was a standard bomber prop, and the Curtiss was a paddle prop with a much wider cord giving it a little bit more of a performance edge over the Hamilton. I havent done anything there yet though. i'm still chawin it over.

On a side note, my MSN messenger is giving me problems and i cant log in, so anyoneneeding to connect with me will need to do it here, on skype or on teamspeak at least for the time being.. sorry..

[fliger747]

Not sure what other bomber might have used a 4 blade ham standard, perhaps the B-26 Marauder? Most of the other R 2800 installations used three blade props, an exception being the F4U-4/5/7 and P47 series. The kind of stuff I need to look up.... to be sure.

Before the B-29 and R-3350 most of the heavy iron (b-17-B24) ran three blade units on the nominally 1200 hp class engines as did the Wildcat, SBD, Beef-ah-low etc. The electric Curtiss units could be troublesome, but at least could be feathered even if the engine was out of oil.

Excited to see all the latest developments.

T

[warchild]

Welllllll, i'm hoping they're developments.. With Paul working on the Stearman Robert trying to do his best on the interior and Cag40 being called away to yet another fire every tim he turns around, the only test resuilts i'm able to get back are my own, and those are only on my machine. Personally i'm loving this thing more all the time, but there is always that nagging question of how will it fly on someone elses machine?? what did i miss?? What mistakes did I make??

I corrected wing incidence, wing dihedral, Mean Aerodynamic cord and propellor diameter to match published specifications. They werent far off, but they were off. My bad. They were my numbers. Also made advancements in correcting rudder force onset and strength but not through there yet.. Those changes will be on the next upload. Probably tomorrow.

I Miss Paul, I'll be honest, and i miss you too when your away. You two make me so mad sometimes i just want to pull out my hair and scream, and i'm extremely grateful for that..

I think once 4.1 is uploaded tomorrow, i'm going to call a hiatus on anything but major FM development till Beta begins, as the fm at this moment is so tight that it will need dissecting by a test team where we can put it back under a bunch of microsopes and torque everything into perfection.. But first, i want to know what its flight characteristics are on your machine.. i want to know if i'm completely out in space on this one, or if we're close. It'll be one or the other.

Be safe in your return home and hope you have a great night..
pam

[warchild]

Changes were mostly minor corrections to the MAC, rudder authority, wing incidence, and dihedral to bring them in line with published data.

Personal observation: this thing needs air brakes.. No wonder they were worried about overshooting a target when they made the C model.. I still find myself amazed at how nimble and graceful she is though..



Edit-Addendum: Regarding speeds,or more accurately slowing down; i cant help but wonder at this moment if the rather low cruising speed ( 225 published 250 average real life used ) wasnt because with less momentum it was asier to slow the plane down for landing. Somehow it seems logical, but i'm not positive at all.. For such a large plane, this thing screams. and yet, i could keep up with a cessna 172.

[stansdds]

Not sure what other bomber might have used a 4 blade ham standard, perhaps the B-26 Marauder? Most of the other R 2800 installations used three blade props, an exception being the F4U-4/5/7 and P47 series. The kind of stuff I need to look up.... to be sure.

Before the B-29 and R-3350 most of the heavy iron (b-17-B24) ran three blade units on the nominally 1200 hp class engines as did the Wildcat, SBD, Beef-ah-low etc. The electric Curtiss units could be troublesome, but at least could be feathered even if the engine was out of oil.

Excited to see all the latest developments.

T

The B-26 Marauder used Curtiss electric props.

[PRB]

Got a tantalizing glimpse of Pam flight testing the Widow at a super secret SOH Skunk Works air base last night. The “Flight-19” gaggle landed at Pendleton OR in our DC-4s, what do you suppose we saw flying around the field? Well, it's so secret that she had her ECM on so it looked just like a DC-4, but, still cool.

[fliger747]

Well.... Off to HNL tonight, then YSSY etc... Will however take my joystick and get some testing in.

Busy times! Cheers, Tom

[warchild]

Well.... Off to HNL tonight, then YSSY etc... Will however take my joystick and get some testing in.

Busy times! Cheers, Tom

HNL?? YSSY?? Man..I really wish they gave you some extra time to enjoy these places.. Have a good flight, and stay safe ok??

[warchild]

Got a tantalizing glimpse of Pam flight testing the Widow at a super secret SOH Skunk Works air base last night. The “Flight-19” gaggle landed at Pendleton OR in our DC-4s, what do you suppose we saw flying around the field? Well, it's so secret that she had her ECM on so it looked just like a DC-4, but, still cool.

Paul.. You should D/L the model .. It was fun. Was gonna drop in and say high but then when i came over the top on that loop everyone had disappeared.. Its what i get for flying that late at night ::chuckles::.. I'm kind of a smart ass that way. Just really like being around people..

[warchild]

Oh Tom.. i forgot to mention the climb rate.. i think i have it fixed.. Set flaps to 20 degrees and rotate at 110 mph. She should settle into a 2300 fpm climb at 150 mph and hold it all the way up..

She'll also do over 4000 fpm if you accelerate to 350 mph and pull up.. she holds it for quite a long way too.. One hell of an elevator ride ..

[fliger747]

Somm'at wierd in the props. Props stuck on 17 deg pitch, takes about 60" MP to get them up to 1500 RPM....

Investigating: T