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Thread: SOH P-61 project

  1. #501
    SOH-CM-2021 warchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fliger747 View Post
    Cockpit is coming along nicely, though I seem to loose the textures each time.. very black....

    I think there is an issue with the prop tables as the props should come into the constant speed range and be settle on selected RPM at a lower MP.

    Nice to have the Gear, prop, cowl flap animations. Seems as if the low speed lateral stability should be greater, feels like it wallos too much on initial climbout.

    Cheers: T
    not sure how to do that Fliger.. Its not that i dont know how, but more that the manual calls for a five minute run up time at 2000 rpm for engine warm up.. I admit I'm a bit naive here, and have been worried that if we reduce the constant speed range control speed below 2000 rpm that it will slide into constant speed during warm up..

    The stability is easy. and i agree.. I'll get to work on that today.

    i didnt know you programmed for Milton. Heh. i've been emulating you all these years.. I'm honored .. really.. Its a wonderful surprise ..

  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimjones View Post
    I have been following this thread for sometime with great interest. Much effort and thought
    is being expended by the participants in this development.Many cudos are due them and I look
    forward to the release someday. Warchild keeps us updated frequently and with backup videos
    of progress and historical videos of interest. There has been mention of files to be flown or
    viewed such as the recent 16sep.zip. Is this file for all to test? If so I need help locating
    the file because I cannot seem to locate it. Indicating it can be found in the soh browser is
    insufficient for me.I have tried often to locate the file without success. Could you provide
    a detailed navigation scheme to get to it? Many thanks .
    Jim Jones
    Not quite ready for open testing yet Jim.. theres still a lot to be done before that stage. Right now we're working alomg two parralel avenues with N2056 doing the interior modeling and Fliger and I building the flight dynamics. Delta558 provides us with feedback and recommendations on the flight model, while Cag40Navy and WhiteHawk are doing over all check flights for visuals and performance.. Bear with us though. we're gonna need people, especially once we have a paintkit. Then, i'll go back through the thread and select people for testing and i'll make sure your included..

  3. #503
    What I get out of the POH (P-27) is not to warmup above 1400-1500 RPM as cooling is insufficent for Cyl's and ignition harneses. 2000 RPM is definitly in the constant speed range as that is the RPM at which the props are pulled back to check for opertaion of the govenor and get warm oil into the prop dome.

    I learned everything I know from Milton, and all the stuff I don't know, I came up with myself.....

    Was going to go flying today, but ended up cutting fire wood....

    Cheers: T

  4. #504
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    i may be getting the 2000 rpm speed mixed up then. I'll shift it back to 1450 and drop controlled speed to 1550.
    Later tonight i'll upload 2.31. Ive started correction for low speed handling and tested it out at 87 mph with full flaps. I thought it was ok, but heh, i know i'm prejudiced .. I'd like for you to put your eyeballs on it and see what you think..
    Was gonna do a lot more work today, but with the overcast sky we have here, instead of flying i've just been being lazy and slow.. Actually kinda feels nice to just relax,, today ..

  5. #505
    Sunshine and lazy afternoon here. Our Indian Summer, a spectacular time, even if it does not last.

    Cheers: Tom

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by warchild View Post
    ...snipped ...

    i didnt know you programmed for Milton. Heh. i've been emulating you all these years.. I'm honored .. really.. Its a wonderful surprise ..
    We all could learn alot from Tom.

    Tom joined us on the SOH A-26 team project if I recall correctly. He has since done the FM's for the XA-38 Grizzly and Puss Moth, and may help out in the new Dash 7 if we ever get there. The SOH F7F project FM is also Tom's work.

    Tom has been gracious about taking that workload off me and we are fortunate to have his expertise.

    As for the teams' early FM work (Dash 7, Aero Commanders, Howard 500, D18S, and Spartan), you have me to blame.
    Milton Shupe
    FS9/FSX Modeler Hack

    My Uploads at SOH - Here
    Video Tutorials - Gmax for Beginners

  7. #507
    I, also have been following this project and enjoying all the updates we get. Looking forward to the finished plane and keep up all the great work.

    Woody

  8. #508
    I 2nd that one Woody, I have been keeping one eye on both Blackwidow and Tigercat.
    I'm a of like a kid on Christmas Eve.....
    Just can't wait to open all the gifts from friends!


    a26

  9. #509
    The cockpit is coming along, nicely, if one instrument at a time. Pam and I are doing our best at replicating the flight manners of a plane we admittedly have not flown! Between the fairly good performance data, manuals and various pilot comments, we should be able to get pretty close.

    Be nice when it gets to the Beta stage, a plethora of comments can be helpful.

    Just did a bunch of arrested landings with the F7F last night on the Michael Davies great Essex class ship! Fun indeed!

    Cheers: T

  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milton Shupe View Post
    We all could learn alot from Tom.

    Tom joined us on the SOH A-26 team project if I recall correctly. He has since done the FM's for the XA-38 Grizzly and Puss Moth, and may help out in the new Dash 7 if we ever get there. The SOH F7F project FM is also Tom's work.

    Tom has been gracious about taking that workload off me and we are fortunate to have his expertise.

    As for the teams' early FM work (Dash 7, Aero Commanders, Howard 500, D18S, and Spartan), you have me to blame.
    Heh.. I still fly all those original models.. I tried for years to get people to adopt your dash 7 into their VA's and now i dont fly for VA's any more. Yes theres a connection. Your Howard is like my sunday afternoon cadillac.. Big, beautiful, comfortable to fly.. She was also my inspiration behind the flight model for the P-61..
    When Tom first joined our group, with Henry's recommendation, i knew that we would have some communication problems to overcome because he's a professional and i'm a devout ridge runner, but when i saw his numbers and did the math, it no longer mattered what mountain i had to climb.. They we very close to my own. I mean very very close, only more savvy ( if i can use that term ) and with a deeper knowledge than i posses. I'm very very glad he's on board. If he wasnt, I'd still be dickin around and only half way to where we're at..
    It wasnt until just last week that i learned that Tom's been working on this plane for two years already. Thats a long long time to carry a project. Glad we're gonna finally be able to make it real for him and others that have been there too..
    if you'd like.. Drop on into teamspeak and download the plane as she is so far. Take her for a spin.. I dont know if you'll see any of your influence in her, but i think you'll enjoy her ..

  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by fliger747 View Post
    The cockpit is coming along, nicely, if one instrument at a time. Pam and I are doing our best at replicating the flight manners of a plane we admittedly have not flown! Between the fairly good performance data, manuals and various pilot comments, we should be able to get pretty close.

    Be nice when it gets to the Beta stage, a plethora of comments can be helpful.

    Just did a bunch of arrested landings with the F7F last night on the Michael Davies great Essex class ship! Fun indeed!

    Cheers: T
    heh.. michael continously blows me away. he's an amazing modeler..
    As for beta? it may be a ways off yet, but thats ok. I like what Roberts doing, and what I'm seeing is some of the most realistic gauge activity i've ever seen. I admot that i would love to have the ability to fly a painted plane. post pictures of her and make movies, but thats just my own selfish fantasy, and i approve of how Roberts doing things. ::chuckles:: i feel like a kid on christmas morning. all these prsents under the tree and in a hurry to open them all.. :;ssigh:; patience can be a real bi**ch some times ::lol:;..

  12. #512
    With the standard rasied so high today for the VC, (not the tunnel rats) that becomes a really large part of the project, one requirig the most research, modeling tallent and attracts the most rivet counting. It seems as if I have worked with any number of planes that still await a VC.

    Glad to see this one underway again, if after a hiatus.

    Cheers: Tom

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by A26 View Post
    I 2nd that one Woody, I have been keeping one eye on both Blackwidow and Tigercat.
    I'm a of like a kid on Christmas Eve.....
    Just can't wait to open all the gifts from friends!


    a26
    I so truly wish there was a way i could put this plane into your hands sooner. But there isnt. perhaps if we can convince Robert to take a day from gauges to create a UV Map for the paint kit, i can at least make more movies and give progress reports. Let you see what we've got as we go along, as it's working in flight..
    Once its to Beta stage, it'll be better because we'll have a lot more feedback, and catch a lot of the things we have otherwise missed..
    Right now, it's just being patient.. Roberts work is coming along beautifully. Tone developing his work in a simulated vacuum in FSX and I'm flying extreme weather. He's getting all the base science and i'm getting the practical wind tunnel stuff. between us, it still may take a little longer, but we may as well be building a real plane. Its a matter of deciphering test data and incorporating the indicated changes as needed.. What the forum readers may see is something like " Oh hey, the wheel fell off" but that gives a clue to each of us as we both know all the connected variables for that to happen and it gets changed ..

  14. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by fliger747 View Post
    With the standard rasied so high today for the VC, (not the tunnel rats) that becomes a really large part of the project, one requirig the most research, modeling tallent and attracts the most rivet counting. It seems as if I have worked with any number of planes that still await a VC.

    Glad to see this one underway again, if after a hiatus.

    Cheers: Tom
    hehehe. i So understand that feeling.. I've got a binder filled with three views of planes that still need a VC. The C-27 and F-111 among them. Some days, i get really angry, because the planes i've spent hundreds and thousands of hours working on, sit there deader than a doornail. Ignored, rejected, forgotten.. Even if i dont charge someone for my work, even if i only take a donation, it still pisses me off because i dont think my time is worthless. For chists sake, if someones not going to finish a project they shouldnt start it. maybe it does get to be not fun. believe me, Math isnt fun at any stage of the game, and thats all i do.. it isnt about fun. its about someone elses delight at what we do.. Red Skelton always said at the end of each of his shows, that if he had made just one person in the world smile, then it was all worth it. Making that one person smile can be a hell of a lot of damned hard work, but to me, it's all worth it because that smile is beyond price.
    I'm really glad for this plane myself. It's going to be finished, it's going to be right, and its going to be the greatest effort of my entire life, even if only one person likes it..

  15. #515
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    FDE-2.31 uploaded to file browser..

    Lots of changes in this one, and if i'm lucky no one will notice any of them at first..
    The rudder was being "too" responsive after a certain point, making the plane hard to control during a yaw or turn. I've smoothed that out some.
    The elevator had a massive force on initial use, causing the nose to snap up slightly. I've smoothed that out without losing any of its total power..
    The "ailerons" were also quite kerfuggled with way too much response at the beginning of a bank, and too much response at the end of the bank.. I'm still working on that, but its smoothed out. My effort now will be to make it fly like it was using spoilers and not ailerons to turn.

    Delta558 pointed out an issue with the left MP needle at around 40 inches. He's experiencing a bouncing needle.. Could someone please verufy that for me and get back to me on it??
    Thanks..
    Pam

  16. #516
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    I've discovered another issue with my own work i'm afraid.. If you take off with full flaps and reach a hundred mph before pulling back on the stick, the tail will lift off the ground.. I'm fixing that as i write this though..

  17. #517
    With regards to the external model, until we are able to contact Crashaz I am very hesitant to do anymore with it than I already have. The mapping for this beast is going to be way more than a day project, and unless I am certain that I am not duplicating work already done I currently have no plans to map anything on the exterior.

    Which leads to the more important issue. Has anyone heard from him lately? I know he lives in Dallas and they had some wild weather recently...I hope things are ok on his end!

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by N2056 View Post
    With regards to the external model, until we are able to contact Crashaz I am very hesitant to do anymore with it than I already have. The mapping for this beast is going to be way more than a day project, and unless I am certain that I am not duplicating work already done I currently have no plans to map anything on the exterior.

    Which leads to the more important issue. Has anyone heard from him lately? I know he lives in Dallas and they had some wild weather recently...I hope things are ok on his end!
    First of all, welcome back! Second, ill see whats going on down there. If someone knows his last name and cares to send it on by so i can see bout getting contact back, that would be fantastic!
    "If three-holers are gas guzzlers, why are there four-holers now???"
    "But what do i know? I'm just the 800 pound guerrilla in the room."

    Fire! Fire! Your pants better not be on fire....

  19. #519
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    Heyyy. welcome home .. hope you had a great trip..
    No worries.. You know i'm just an overgrown kid with her hands on the christmas wrappings .. I trust your judgment implicitly ..

  20. #520
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    As the man in the movie says, this baby will fly herself right off the ground, At 87 - 90 mph with full flaps.. i need to reduce dihedral effect and sideslip a bit more as below 100 she wants to get real slippery, but the takeoff is level, and she stilll flys like a cadillac with an attitude ..
    With every small step we take this bird closer and closer to having it fly exactly as it's been said it flew.. Finger tip control-ability, forgiving as it gets, Extremely comfotable and easy to fly, and responsive as it gets without surprises..
    the downside?? heh. screaming across the desert floor at ten feet and 350 mph is about ho hum.. Its really that easy in her..
    I moved the center of lift from 1.2 inches to 4 inches forward of the CG and increased the lift on the horizontal tail from -129 to 129. I've also lowered the minimum controlled RPM to 1550 rpm and increased the propellers efficiency at 55 and 60 degrees by a knotch to improve top end performance.
    been a busy day.. its 1AM.. Time for a video game ::LOL::

  21. #521
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    FDE-2.32 uploaded to browser.

    Its a very quick update and only one change was made, but its an important change.. After getting the plane to take off on her own, we had a situation where very low speed maneuvering was almost impossible because of dihedral effect. This update makes corrections for that. You still have dihedral, you still have sideslip, but now at least its controllable and you can maneuver in on a shrt runway to make those night landings..
    Enjoy folks ..

  22. #522
    To expand a bit more on Pam's comment about the left MP needle: I'm using seperate throttles, and I'm not getting this with any other multi so I believe it's not the hardware. The right needle is precise, goes where you put it. The left, however, tends to wander of its own accord before finally settling roughly where I want it. In some cases, it is an extreme movement, covering almost half the gauge when I'm only making a fine adjustment. Other times, if I move the throttle the needle heads off in the wrong direction before correcting itself.

  23. #523
    just a few pics..



    You can find most of my repaints in the library here on the outhouse

  24. #524
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    ok.. Sent Crashaz an email wondering if he's ok.. he hasnt been on since sept. 1st so hopefully things are ok and he'll recieve it..

  25. #525
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    progress notes..

    Yesterday i was working on smoothing out the curves for the control surfaces to make controlling the aircraft more precise and closer to realistic. I say closer because we only have analogies to work with from pilots and observers. I believe i have done ok with them but time will tell.. Today it was about props and getting them tuned to match the ones used on the p-61. The P-61 actually used one of two props. At first they used a Hamilton Standard prop with a fairly conventional shape to it, but it was designed for and later used the Curtiss Electric prop whuch had a paddle shape out towards the tip. That paddle shape provided a percentage of higher power and therefore speed at higher manifold pressures. Our P-61 has been plagued with slow acceleration rates. That meant that even though we could engineer the drag and other aspects of it to take off with flaps in the proscribed distance, without flaps (such as in a scramble takeoff ) it would take over twice the length it should have needed.. I'd been baffled by that till this morning when i was talking with delta558 when it all fell into place.
    The "paddles" on the tips of the propellers cause it to grab much more air when the pitch of the propeller is advanced above 37 degrees, so i focused on changing only those curves in the table, the ones between 45 degrees and 60 degrees. this resulted in is a clean ( no flaps ) takeoff distance of about 2500 feet at 137 mph. Standard flaps ( 20 degrees ) causes the plane to be able to take off in a little under 2400 feet, and with 45 degree flaps, you can take off in a little under a thousand feet. Full flaps a little less than 900 feet..
    I also noticed while flying around that when you banked the nose would yaw upwards instead of fall like its supposed too. Guess i was blind or something. I fixed that as well tonight..
    Induced drag may be a bit high. she seems to be falling off her speed a bit fast in a turn, but that may be my imagination.. I mean, i can see a GA aircraft losing speed like that in a turn because it isnt designed for the purpose of fighting, but a fighter relies on the ability to maintain energy to some degree through a turn in order to maintain maneuverability, and this plane especially so. Part of me wants to think that momentum alone would help pull it through the turn, not to mention those big engines of hers.. She weighs several thousand pounds more than a B-25, and yet is only one man wide, carries only three crew, and no bombs. Well, at least no bombs during the earlier periods of her usefulness.. Shes a 30000 pound freight train. She shouldn't slow down quite so soon.. At least, i don't think she should.. maybe I'm incorrect though..
    Work continues ..
    Pam

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