Oceana F/A-18 pilots grounded after low flyover
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Thread: Oceana F/A-18 pilots grounded after low flyover

  1. #1
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    Oceana F/A-18 pilots grounded after low flyover

    OCEANA
    Two fighter pilots from Virginia Beach have been permanently grounded after flying too low over a packed Georgia Tech football game last year.

    The aviators, both from Strike Fighter Squadron 136 at Oceana Naval Air Station and both Georgia Tech alum ni, were supposed to pass over Bobby Dodd Stadium in downtown Atlanta at 1,000 feet, the standard altitude for military flyovers.

    Plans called for two jets to pass overhead after the conclusion of the national anthem, shortly before Georgia Tech took the field against Wake Forest on Nov. 7.

    Instead, the two F/A-18 Super Hornets flew just a few hundred feet above the stadium.

    The low-altitude pass may not have been intentional, but it seemed to thrill the crowd. Within hours of the game, various fans posted videos on the Internet of the jets screaming overhead.

    ''However much of my tax $$ went to that, I'd gladly give it again for the same purpose," one fan wrote on a Georgia Tech sports blog two days after the flyover. "It was INCREDIBLE."

    According to documents obtained by The Virginian-Pilot, Lt. Cmdr. Christopher Condon and Lt. Cmdr. Marc Fryman reported the breach immediately after landing. The Navy quickly convened an evaluation board to consider whether they should continue flying.

    The board found that they chose to fly using barometric altitude measurements (feet above sea level) instead of radar altitude measurements (feet above ground level) but failed to adjust their low-altitude warning systems accordingly.

    By the time the alarm sounded, the pilots didn't have enough time to correct the mistake.

    Although the pilots "inexplicably failed to recognize" how low they were flying, the board concluded, their lapse was neither intentional nor malicious. It recommended putting both pilots on probation, an outcome endorsed and forwarded up multiple levels of the chain of command.

    But the final authority on the matter, Rear Adm. R.J. O'Hanlon, commander of Naval Air Force Atlantic, disputed the conclusion that Condon, the lead pilot, had unintentionally flown that low.

    ''The arguments written by prior endorsers that LCDR Condon's actions were an honest mistake are not persuasive," O'Hanlon wrote. "He is a senior, very experienced department head who placed his aircraft and wingman in a very dangerous position."

    O'Hanlon also had tough words for Fryman. Despite a spotless record, O'Hanlon wrote, Fryman's complacent response to the altitude transgression and lack of situational awareness were "unforgiveable in my view."

    Lt. Cmdr. Phil Rosi, a spokesman for the Norfolk-based Commander Naval Air Force Atlantic, said the Navy would not confirm the pilots' names. The field naval aviator evaluation board process is administrative, Rosi said, one of naval aviation's internal checks and balances, and carries with it an expectation of privacy.

    ''I can confirm that this incident happened," Rosi said, and because minimum established guidelines were violated, the Navy took appropriate action to handle it.

    O'Hanlon's decision was not disciplinary, and he recommended that both men be retained and shifted to a different specialty. He described both as motivated and dedicated naval officers.

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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by hey_moe View Post
    and he recommended that both men be retained and shifted to a different specialty.
    What "different specialty" could possibly compare to being a pilot?
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by David_L6 View Post
    What "different specialty" could possibly compare to being a pilot?
    maybe they mean they won't fly fighters anymore. just guessing

  4. #4
    In this case I think it means being moved from F-18's to some other aircraft type such as P-3's or E-2's. No offense to any forum members who have served in those communities but for a fighter guy that's equivalent to exile in Siberia. I hope they don't get their wings pulled for the incident.

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    To me I think they are being to picky on the pilots. I see nothing wrong with what they did and at air shows they fly lower than that.
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  6. #6
    I agree with Moe 100%. Typical chickens**t move by command staff which is too common these days. Permanently grounding them over this? Geez.
    "Soon to be Expat"

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    "Tower...request flyby.."
    "Negative, the pattern is full!"
    "Uh, Mav, this is not a good idea..." :d

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    SOH-CM-2024 jmig's Avatar
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    It is the "kiss of death" to their careers. They will both be retiring soon.

    In this world of "Politically Correctness" things that were once over looked are now mortal sins.

    It is a shame to destroy to careers over this. I can assure you that they or the public were in no danger.
    John

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    Senior Administrator PRB's Avatar
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    One time, when I worked at NAS Lemoore, and lived in the near by town of Hanford, CA, a couple of Super Hornets flew down "main st." in Hanford, at very low altitude, to kick off the 4th of July fire works show. It was cool. My two cats were terrified, running "to and fro" looking for cover. One of the guys in our office called the base commander to complain about it!! And he was himself an ex-naval aviator. Some people!
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  10. #10
    'Tis a different Navy, and indeed, a changed society.

    In years past, such things would not only have been accepted, but cheered.

    No more fun..............

    GO NAVAIR......long live the "old" days.

    NC

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by hey_moe View Post
    To me I think they are being to picky on the pilots. I see nothing wrong with what they did and at air shows they fly lower than that.
    Ya hit the nail on the head with that one, Moe !

    "Hornets by mandate, Tomcats by choice!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
    In years past, such things would not only have been accepted, but cheered.
    not really, in ww2 an awful lot of people complained about the RAF doing low flying excersies near em, they were just told to sod off though, allthough in different terms :mixedsmi:
    yes i know i cant spell half the time! Thank you kindly to those few who pointed that out

  13. #13
    Senior Administrator PRB's Avatar
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    In the 1980s, two of our pilots (A-7Es) got into a wee bit of trouble after flying over then President Reagan's CA ranch, for a sight seeing pass... But it was just a butt chewing. They kept thier Corsair wings.
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  14. #14
    Such a shame to hear this. It's not like they were a couple of Junior Officers out showboating, but rather a pair of experienced LCDR's. What in the hell is this world coming to?

    Mike

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by jmig View Post
    It is the "kiss of death" to their careers. They will both be retiring soon.

    In this world of "Politically Correctness" things that were once over looked are now mortal sins.

    It is a shame to destroy to careers over this. I can assure you that they or the public were in no danger.
    Nail -on - head correct, welcome to the un-employment line, please take a number. Or they could allways get a job with Fedx. But thats why not every one gets a seat in a F-18.

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    I would find it hard to believe those two pilots would do something to endanger the public at a game like that.To what they did and to justify that kind of punishment to me is totally uncalled for. To me some big wheel tird is really over stepping his authority.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by hey_moe View Post
    To me I think they are being to picky on the pilots. I see nothing wrong with what they did and at air shows they fly lower than that.
    Gotta agree with Moe.... But besides that, what about combat? Isn't that extreme danger, or am I missing something?

    But then again there are rules:

    1. The Boss is always right.

    2. See rule number 1.
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  18. #18
    I would not be surprised a bit if the Rear Admiral got a call from the FAA, them having been notified by one of our fearless politicians that saw this...
    -John-

  19. #19
    Ken Stallings
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    Way overboard on the punishment in my view. The difference visually speaking between "a few hundred feet" versus 1,000 feet AGL is very difficult to detect in flight. Furthermore, I believe a flawed assumption is being made by the senior reviewing officer. It is not automatically superior to use radar altimeter over barometric altimeter. Radar altimeters can be inaccurate also due to the reflective nature of the terrain and the calibration of the equipment.

    The issue was the accuracy of the local pressure altitude setting dialed into the baro altimeter. My guess is the two pilots were using the local altimeter used by the nearest airport and normally that is very accurate. However, on days where the pressure is rapidly changing, being 500 feet off (which is likely all this was) is not uncommon.

    I think the recommendations made by the reviewing board were rational and fair. Obviously this senior reviewing officer has a size twelve corn cob stuck high up his rectum and needs an enema!

    If the two pilots were hot dogging then that's one thing, but the fact they landed and promptly filed a report on themselves shows it was unintentional. I have never known a hot dog artist to file paperwork on himself immediately after landing. All this sanctimonious jerk of a reviewing officer likely did was cost this nation the vital services of two highly professional aviators during prolonged war.

    In wars past, such a ruling would have been considered laughable. Richard Bong's punishment for flying too low over a civilian's house was his commander ordered him to report to the house and perform laundry chores for the lady who's "wash was blown off her line!"

    If this dimwit who crucified these two Naval officers had been Bong's boss, there would have been forty fewer Japanese aircraft shot down in the war!

    Ken

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    Wasn't there a Blue Angels crash attributed to incorrect altimeter pressure setting, a while ago?

  21. #21
    Ken Stallings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyboy208 View Post
    What in the hell is this world coming to?

    Mike
    ... A long overdue correction back to equilibrium and sanity! Because I think this holier-than-thou and merciless sense of punishment over any slight mistake has reached full stupidity and too many good people are being arbitrarily hung out to dry.

    Every time something like this happens, you can bank on at least several potential recruits who decide perhaps the US military isn't the carerr for them after all!

    Flying is supposed to be fun and you don't have to hot dog to have fun flying. However, there is a gross difference between hot dogging and an honest inability to calibrate your eyeballs to within 500 feet or so at low level.

    Ken

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    My two cents is that this Admiral has a case of "watch me do this and thereby in some miniscule way justify my job". There's been a enviroment in the Navy upper echelons of eating their young since before I retired. It all goes back to zero tolerance for any transgressions which in my mind is a career killer and totally un-necessary.

    On a related front for Ken. At the horse forums I frequent, a woman out west has been having problems with low flying aircraft coming in low level and scaring her horses enough that they're coming through the fences injuring themselves in the process. She says that this happens every few weeks. From her description, it's some kind of motorized glider. I told her to call the tower at her local airport and try to get the tail number of the aircraft. Any further suggestions that I could pass on, other than a shotgun and buckshot?
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  23. #23
    Two LCDR's? Hmmmm, they must have about 15 years in service. Drum them out before retirement eligibility? Saves money for the navy. I know a former LCDR who was drummed out with 16 years in. He was sufficiently connected and bitched enough to get a partial retirement, but I think he is the rare case.

    Just my tinfoil hat thoughts.
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    It seems that we are NOT ALLOWED to have fun anymore.. What a Bummer..

    That shouldn't pull those mens wings..They showed very good flying skills: low level in any Modern jet at speed takes skill and daring..
    Perhaps they should be Teaching the "Brass" how to fly aircraft and Not desks..

    So much for the good old days, when be "michievous" wasn't a Crime..

  25. #25
    tigisfat
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    A few points:

    -This waiver to fly over an event with assembled people had a hard deck. It is illegal to fly aerobatics or a flight demonstration over a crowd without a specific one-time waiver.

    -You can't compare this flight to airshows because a military airshow demo pilot has a full aerobatic waiver for each performance and his sole flying mission is to demonstrate the aircraft, which he's been training for and has a fully developed and realized profile. He also belongs to a unit that primarily flies demos. In every service, just about any pilot who's approved can perform an event flyover. There's a very large difference. Many flyovers are tacked onto normal training sorties.

    -The punishment is par for the course. It stinks, but everyone in today's military knows the stakes, and absolutely flawless behavior at all times is expected. They still chose to hang themselves out.

    -Hotdogging and playing in aircraft is allowed, I guarantee every Super Hornet pilot at their base has had the oppurtunity to screw off a little, but there's a time and place such as on a low level route or out in Nevada. Perhaps if there weren't a jillion cameras rolling they would've fared better.


    Personally, I think they didn't do anything wrong. If I were the commander, they'd get a slap on the wrist. They were a little excessively low, and I would rather see that height with higher speed for momentum, lower AOA for visibility and better margins and maneuvering, but that's all kinda whatever. An old colonel flight instructor of mine said that when he was a lieutenant, his AC rolled a B-1 so smoothly he barely noticed in the back of the aircraft. He had to find out later. MANY years later, someone reported the AC as the AC was going for his first star. My instructor was permanently refused full bird because of being part of the aircrew.



    It's regrettable.

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