Messerschmitt Bf 109G Trainer

[stoney]

Michael, I would like to have that "Black 27" skin if you could UL it.

[michaelvader]

good morning Stoney,
Black 27?
I' m estonished as I only know Yellow 27.
I found photos of this bird from wartime. But there exists a Yellow 27 flying to day (sadly with an RR engine now)
She was rebuild from a spanish 109 by MeierMotors in Bremgarten. Than flown by the team of Hangar 10 in Usedom on the baltic coast.
For maintenance reasons they changed the engine to a RR engine.
After the death of the company founder the bird was sold to the Messerschmitt Stiftung at Manching
I did this repaint (with of course the DB engine) as she can be seen today.
There is still some work to do on her.
But I hope to be able to release my version of the G-12 soon.
There will be two versions - war time with a wartime cockpit and the yellow 27 with a "today" cockpit
So if you want a "Black 27", please send me photos or pics than I will see if I can do it.
But really my competances in repainting are limited.
Shessi or Huub ar a lot more competant than I ever will be.
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader

[Bookman1960]

Found a few more schemes.

[Bookman1960]

And lastly, it seems that two trainers were delivered to Italy.

[Bookman1960]

Info on the Italian planes:
A few Bf-109G-12s were used by the Pro-German (ANR) Aeronautica Nazionale Reppubblicana to covert pilots from Macchi C.205 and Fiat G.55 fighters, when the Italians started to use the Bf-109-Gs in 1944. One unit was the 3 Squadriglia 2 Gruppo Caccia based at Aviano, Italy in 1944. Veteran pilots had experience flying the Bf 109G models.



I found this recollection from the amazing Captain Eric Brown:



"One of my rashest ventures was to fly the Bf-109G-12 tandam two-seater from the rear cockpit, with no one in the forward cockpit. I was interested to acertain what sort of view the instructor had for landing. The answer was none! I had to make three very frightening attempts beforeregaining terra firma. The periscope sight in the rear cockpit was of no use whatsoever in the vital final stage of flare, touch-down and landing run. One can only assume that Luftwaffe instructors finding themselves in a Bf-109G-12 acquired a fatalistic acceptance of an inevitable reliance on their pupils for the finale of each training flight. I would certainly not recommend the ultimate solution that I adopted, of a split-S turning dive at the runway, and then a burst of power to avoid cratering the tarmac, and making tail-up contact on the mainwheels. After the tail dropped, it was anybody's guess as to the direction in which the aircraft was heading. I certainly had not the vaguest idea."


--Captain Eric M. Brown, Wings of the Luftwaffe. Page 157

[stoney]

Good grief! I did mean yellow and not black, why I wrote black is beyond me. Thanks Michael. Maybe these are worthy though.

[zswobbie1]

Hi all,
Do we now have 3 BF109G's?
What are the differences between them?

[michaelvader]

Hallo Robin,
The release Messerschmitt Bf 109GTrainer is the first released by Allen in colaboration with Cpt Kurt.
On my demand if a two seat version of the Bf 109G exists Allen very quickly did his one. His reponse to my demand was faster than I could believe.
Than I began to work on this basis to do a front and rear panel. And I had a little look on the flight behaviour of the bird.
Later when studying all my docs I saw that in fact the history of the real Bf 109 G -12 is a bit complex. On the other side I know that an example has been rebuild to fly in present time. But the use is a bit different.
I will not comment Allen's release as he was so kind to make one on my simple demand.
I will just point out the differnces of my publications.
The first is in its wartime configuration with the instructor sitting on the backseat. so as same as the release from Allen the views are done to see from the backseat. Also it is armed and for those who like it, she can fire her guns when airborne and you hit the brakes key..The rear cockpit is very complete, the instructor have all the controls of the plane in his cockpit.
The second one shows the rebuild of an Bf 109 G-12 as it has been done in the year 2016.
The front cockpit is equiped with some modern gauges as they are needed due to flight reglemantations of today.
The rear cockpit is quiet simplier than my wartime version but still allows to fly the plane frome the rear. But the views
are now centered on the front cockpit as the plane towardays is more flown from the front cockpit. And the rear will certainly be occupied by passengers, the pilot in command will be in the front cockpit.
I also removed the gun functions and changed the flight dynamics to be more conform to the actual plane.
Of course also I did the painting of "yellow 27" with the german flag and its actual registration under the horizontal stab
as the plane have them..
If one day some one will do a version with the RR Merline engine, I will be prepared to change the cockpit again to fit english engine gauges.
At last I believe the best person to comment the three different version will be Allen as he did the first one and without his work I could not do mine ones
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
Kenavo from Brittany

[michaelvader]

Here the war time cockpits
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader

[michaelvader]

Here the the cockpits from the 109 G-12 D-FMGZ from 2016
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader

[zswobbie1]

Thanks for the explanation.
I was a bit confused, that happens when trying to read forums in the VERY early hours of the morning.

[michaelvader]

Godd morning every one,

hope that you find the version that matches you best.
Early this morning I uploaded a little fix for the wartime version.
So now when you have chossen the war time version and you switch to the 2D panels you will sit at the rear cockpit first and fly her as instructor.
Best Regards
and
Happy landings
Yours
Michael Vader

[Allen]

Michael: The war time rear cockpit isn't right at all. Here is a pic that show some of the rear panel area.

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/...y-1945-01.html

[michaelvader]

Good morning Allen,
Thank you for your advice
I have also a cockpit profile about the panel what can be seen on the picture.
And when "yellow 27" was rebuild they choose this layout.
In a german book I found said that on some ones have been mounted dashboards of the
later 109 versions with the "Blindflugtafel" sadly it is only mentionned that the reason was
that the dashboard was more complete and had a Variometer (vsi) which would be more
"confortable" for the instructor.
Also Eric Brown spoke about a periscope - I never saw one on any picture nore mentionned as only by Eric Brown
So hmmm what should I do?
Post a new version of the wartime panel but with the rear layout of Yellow 27?
Or let the things as they are?
Seen the few downloads of my version - - -
Best Regards
Michael Vader

[michaelvader]

Good morning friends
Here just a photo of a rear cockpit very close to the oneas I did .
It is from a Buchon
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader

[michaelvader]

Good morning,
Allen,
as announced in the mail here the panel as I have it now.
I hope I match what you wanted.
Otherwise the "worksop" is not closed LOL
Best Regards
Yours
Michael Vader

[K5083]

Just want to commend and thank both Allen and Michael for your work on this project. The rear virtual cockpit implementation is very nice. I am using Michael's upload of the WWII version, and it works well in FSX. This means that I can fly it in VR, which is very enjoyable. It is a worthy companion to the old Just Flight Spitfire T.9. I never expected to be able to fly a 109 from this perspective.

August

[Allen]

New smooth nose early G model with all new paint Soon™

[michaelvader]

Guten Morgen liebe Freunde
Good morning dear friends,
it is pleasant to read that my little contribuation is apreciated.
I also wait for the "smooth nose" model to correcct my D-FMGZ version.
A bit sad that it would be too much work to give her the actual Buchon nose.
But that Allen did this plane and will give us a newer version with the smooth nose
a great "thank you"!
I tried to make aproaches as Eric Brown did discribe, a bit hairy, I prefer to make a steep aproach by aiming the middle length of the runway and I perform more and more to make not "week-end" landings (friday - boum, saturday -boum, sunday boum and ouf)
Happy landings
Yours
Michael Vader

[Allen]

A new entry has been added to Add-Ons Library, category FS 2004 Military - Props

Description: This rebuild of the stock CFS3 Bf 109G-6 converted to a G-4 Two-Seat Trainer. The model is on the basic side as just has moving parts and working VC for front and rear. No LODs, breaking parts or mouse-able switches and levers. Flight Dynamics are originally by Captain Kurt done for the Team Daedalus Bf 109s. Includes gMax source. Paint is of a Bf 109 Belonging to the 5./JG 108 (ex I./JG 107). Borgond, Hungary Aug 1944.

To fly from rear seat edit the aircraft.cfg and change the eyepoints. Use tailook to put pilot model in the front seat when flying from rear seat. The rear seat view/eyepoints are in the aircraft.cfg but //-ed out. 2D rear seat panel is the "panel Rear Seat 2D Panel" folder.

To check it out, rate it or add comments, visit Messerschmitt Bf 109G-4 Trainer
The comments you make there will appear in the posts below.

[Allen]

The tall tail Bf109 "DF+CC" (White Bf 109 up thread). The drawing posted here and other profiles I have seen show it as G-10 or newer yet this flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/280920...7631641614115/ has pic that say it is "DF+CC" but tail number is 61 and also gives W.Nr. 14123. The book "MESSERSCHMITT BF 109 PART 2, THE: Part 2: 'F' to 'K'" list W.Nr. 14123 as Bf 109G-1 that Emergency landed due to fuel shortage 1943.

Tall tails where not a thing tell late G-6...So is the listed W.Nr. wrong or did a G-1 survive as a G-12 and get fitted with a tall tail?

[michaelvader]

Hallo Allen,

thank you for this new version.
Now yellow 27 has her gight nose as she should have.
To make the paint of yellow 27 "modern times" match the new model
was not as simple as I thought in the beginning LOL
I have with the first planes now also
Schwarze 41, in 1944 configuration with this panel
D-FMGZ in 2016 configuration with the cockpit config flown from the front seat.
Concerning the "DF+CC" she seems a to be a real "bizza":
a) front end of a G-10 with DB605 AS engine and fin from a later G-14 but short tailwheel
Also so U4 in the title seems mysterious for me
Too much work to make here with the "K series" front end and tall fin - simply to forget
What concerns her Werksnummer, perhaps it was a quiet older basic airframe to be reworked several times.
Thank you again
Best regards
Michael Vader

[Allen]

With "DF+CC" I'm going to go out on a limb and lets say the flickr info is right an "DF+CC" was G-1. Maybe paint profile drawing are wrong with the engine and it was never fitted with the later wide G-10 front end but people assumed that "DF+CC" was G-10 or newer because of the tall tail. As for why the paint profiles have 81 yet the pic show 61, Maybe they had low res pic we haven't seen so the 6 looked like a 8?

Reading a bit here http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techre...s/talltail.htm.

It seems like the tall tail could be fit to any G model by removing the the upper part of the Vertical Stabilizer and Rudder than putting on the new taller upper Vertical Stabilizer and new Rudder.

Also here is another tall tail G-12.(the rudder has been removed, the white square above the X is sky) The link and page says "White 27" yet it looks like a dark color 22
https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/...y-1945-02.html

[michaelvader]

Good morning Allen
concerning "yellow 27" I' m a bit astonished about ASIBIZ
they call the bird "white 27" ex BJ+DZ but when you compare the white color on the cross
and the color of the number 27, it is clearly darker than the cross, so I tend to say that it is not a WHITE but perhaps yellow
27. On the otherhand I know MeierMotors very accurate when restauring birds, so if they have choosen to make her as yellew
27 this might be right.
I now the site of ASISBIZ.
Really very usefull, but there was also some times in the past where I remarked the comments not always to be exact.
I will certainly not blame them! It is really difficult to find the right colors from a black and white photo and with the
multitude of info they have sometimes there are an "oups"
Concerning the wooden tails when someone writes that the german industry did not want to make wooden parts of the plane it was NOT for strategic reason as the germans had enough material, sorry that is nonsense. Germany had a very big problem to have enough alloy.
So Kurt Tank had to try to use steel for the wings of the TA152. They tried out to make also wooden wings and tails for the Me-262.
Best known are also the wooden wings of the He 162. A reason also was that the wooden parts could be done by little factories with a non specialized workmansship you need for metal working.
The tail basis of the 109 in fact allowed to fit the little early fin and rudder than also the later tall fin and rudder.
Fin and rudder could be made of wood but also the complete tail.
In his first edition Albert Speer mention to use no more " strategic" materials but more use wood what was more disponible.
So on their trucks later apeared the "Eineitsführerhaus", easy to build, standard and made of wood. And last not least one need big tools and a lot of energy to work steel and especially alloy rather more than wood.
Germanys resources have been at the end when finally the third reich collapsed - mainly also due to the shortage of carburants they litteraly flyied "with the vapours of fuel"
Best Regards
Yours
Michael Vader