Consolidated LB-30/B-24A/MkI/II Liberator engines

[ian elliot]

Just been watching a documentary on Douglas Skyraiders in Vietnam on YouTube, they seem to have something very slimier on there engines also

[Thudman]

Might try the aircraft manufacturer. Engine "kits" for installation on the specific aircraft are usually supplied by them.

[Shessi]

Thanks Pete, just emailed them.

Ian, good spot, yes I see what you mean. Seems like it may be the same thing? I've just had a search around for info on the Spad and the W cyclone, but nothing obvious. It's typical as these discs are not part of the engine, but not part of the aircraft!

T'man, yes I think you're right, that they are add on kits. The CAF Diamond Lil had them fitted to her engines when she was an early LB30, but doesn't now. Unless they've changed engine/prop type, then they may have removed the de-icing system as they are never going to fly in those conditions. This is one of the questions of the 3 emails I've sent to them!

TBH I do think these are covers for the prop anti-icing slinger ring system. When you look up about these systems they do match well, it's just I would like confirmation and some evidence of that fact. This pic is off a small PPL ac, and the similarities are close.

Cheers

Shessi

[Miggers]

Try these:

http://www.vintageradials.com/services.htm

https://www.covingtonaircraft.com/radial/

https://www.younkinaviation.com/index.cfm

All say they re-build or overhaul P&W radials.

[Shessi]

Thanks M, will give them a try.

TBH, it would be nice just to get recognition of one of my enquiry emails. I appreciate it's a very minor bit of info and of little significance to them, but just a reply would be good!!

Cheers

Shessi

[Miggers]

Thanks M, will give them a try.

TBH, it would be nice just to get recognition of one of my enquiry emails. I appreciate it's a very minor bit of info and of little significance to them, but just a reply would be good!!

Cheers

Shessi

I know what you mean mate,very frustrating isn't it.
I'm trying to think where else you can ask TBH,maybe whoever owns the "Consolidated" aircraft company name
(probably Boeing,they seem to own everyone else!!).
I know Consolidated merged with Vultee and became Convair,in 1953 General Dynamics purchased a majority share,
then sold it to MDD in 1994.
Who owns MDD now? Boeing of course.

[Mick]

Thanks M, will give them a try.

TBH, it would be nice just to get recognition of one of my enquiry emails. I appreciate it's a very minor bit of info and of little significance to them, but just a reply would be good!!

Cheers

Shessi

Some folks are better than those you reached out to. Some years ago when David and I were working on the Gee Bee planes we needed some information about the panel of the R-1 and R-2. Knowing that they had a replica R-1, we wrote to the New England Air Museum with a couple questions. They had someone get up on a ladder to reach the plane, which was suspended from the ceiling, and took photos of the panel for us!

[Shessi]

Well folks, something........

At last a reply and help! yey! On Pete's suggestion I emailed all of those, and Covington Aircraft got back. They sent me a couple of pages from the B-24D,H,J maintence manual, which although not an LB30, it does reveal that the discs on those ac are more than likely part of, or covers for, the slinger ring de-icing system. They didn't know definitively, and I would still like to have that 'in blood'.

The only minor issue now is that say it is part of the de-icing system, it appears to be fixed to the crankcase boss, and not the prop...if it doesn't spin, then how does it work? And why have that huge disc on the LB30s when later marks of B-24 still had de-icing systems, but not the discs!!???. Even on this B-24D pdf the only way I can see this working is either the disc and prop delivery pipes spin, with the fixed feed pipe drains into the rear of the rings, or the rings and pipes are fixed and the fluid splashes out which the props cut though the spray, which seems very inefficient?

Your next quest is to find video footage of early P&W engines ac, which thes discs, and the engines running, to see what the discs are doing....to spin or not to spin...that is the question!.........question, questions, questions...I must get a life!


Thanks again for your thoughts and efforts.

Cheers

Shessi

[Miggers]

I'd say that's nailed it there Shess.
They've got to spin with the prop so the the fluid is "slung" out onto the blades.

[Shessi]

Yes agreed M, but I still want know if the whole of the LB30 discs spin or what we see is a cover for the spinning slinger ring inside?? ha ha!

Cheers

Shessi

p.s. Next topic will discussing flight deck ashtrays, and how they operate..............

[ViperPilot2]

A couple questions...

-- We're talking the LB-30, so with round cowled Radials instead of the D model with the oval, scooped cowlings, right?

I found this Video, which the CAF is calling an LB-30; at 00:46 upon Startup there is a Silver ring clearly seen behind the turning Propeller, which is not rotating...


https://youtu.be/3OYq0CyV0g0?si=2k_5yc8e6uSt6pCP

Is this what you were looking for?

[Shessi]

Hi VP,
Thanks for the thought.

Unfortunately the ex-LB30 Diamond Lil had this disc/slinger ring anti icing system removed at some point. It appears to have happened very early in it's life as all the old pics of Diamond Lil (even before it had it's nose lengthened to D spec) it had them removed.

The silver ring you see on Diamond Lil in the video is a protective cover for the electrical/fluid lines (see attached pic), so no it doesn't spin, as it has nothing to do with the prop. The engines on Lil are still the early non-turbo charged P&W 1830's, or if changed the turbo charging was removed from replacement the engines.

Lil doesn't need the de-icing system as it's based in Texas; and doesn't fly at high altitudes or in bad weather. Again doesn't need any turbo charging due to general flying heights or performance requirements.


Of course the people to answer this 'dsic' question IS the CAF, but after three emails they still haven't replied.......or even acknowledged them! They would know definitively, it's a shame.

I've just emailed the Dallas base where Lil is based, so maybe they'll reply where CAF HQ didn't!

Cheers

Shessi

[ViperPilot2]

Yes agreed M, but I still want know if the whole of the LB30 discs spin or what we see is a cover for the spinning slinger ring inside?? ha ha!

Cheers

Shessi

p.s. Next topic will discussing flight deck ashtrays, and how they operate..............

Oooh... not the best Topic to discuss, given how leaky the Lib's Fuel System was; especially the way Ernest Gann described it.

[Miggers]

Yes agreed M, but I still want know if the whole of the LB30 discs spin or what we see is a cover for the spinning slinger ring inside?? ha ha!

Cheers

Shessi

p.s. Next topic will discussing flight deck ashtrays, and how they operate..............

My guess is this:
There are two plates,the outer with the slinger feed pipes which is fixed to the prop hub/CSU and spins with the prop.
The outer edge is roughly half "C" shaped and comprises a rubber lip seal(s)that is ethylene glycol resistant.

The inner is exactly the same as the outer,obviously a slightly smaller diameter,again with roughly a half "C" shape
that fits inside the outer,again with a rubber lip seal(s).
The inner is fixed to the gearbox/nose housing of the engine and does not rotate as it has the feed pipes coming from
the de-icer pump.

The de-icer fluid only need to be of a relatively low viscosity and pumped at a low pressure to the inner plate.
Centrifugal force does the rest and "slings" the mixture out onto the prop L/E 's.

Lip seals must be fairly wear resistant,but don't forget that although take off RPM may well be 2800-3000 RPM,
cruise will be below 2000 RPM,so causing little or minimal wear to the lip seals.

That's how(being an engineering fitter)I envisage them working at any rate.

[Shessi]

Hi M,
Yes, TBH that's how I've seen it since working out that it most probably is the de-icing slinger ring system..the hint how it works is in the title..ha ha!

I think the B-24D diagram from the workshop manual actually shows the spinning rings, without the fixed disc covers. As you say the spinning ring section acts as a 'gutter', which only needs to be drip fed as such, and then centrifugal forces the fluid out the tubes to the props.

Be nice if the Diamond Lil guys get back, just to prove..how clever we are..., just joking, but would be good to confirm it.

I'll keep you posted.

Cheers

Shessi

[Motormouse]

Simplified diagram of slinger ring system on this page

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-...-system-works/

Ttfn

Pete