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Thread: AI bombers passing/ignoring waypoints

  1. #51
    This was always a problem with the Alphasim Ju-87,it would dive bomb it's target and not pull up.This was discussed in the forums 18 to 20 years ago.The airfile was the problem so people started using other dive bomber airfiles and it fixed the problem.

    As for the warping I discussed my son doesn't much escort missions but usually dive bombing and sweeps so I guess that's why it works for him.

    Hiede

  2. #52
    Heide, I will try the other Stukas suggested by Uncle target. Maybe that will be better for dive bombing ships. As far as the warping, that will work if your flight is doing the bombing but not if you're escorting the bombers. The mystery continues LOL

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by _486_Col_Wolf View Post
    Heide, I will try the other Stukas suggested by Uncle target. Maybe that will be better for dive bombing ships. As far as the warping, that will work if your flight is doing the bombing but not if you're escorting the bombers. The mystery continues LOL
    It's probably the way the sim was setup,no one probably thought about it.

    Every sim has it's flaws and you just have to live with it.

    Hiede

  4. #54
    something I had intended trying but never got around to, was adding some weapons (such as rockets) to the divebombers to see if they could be persuaded to attack with those rockets at another waypoint (to make them follow the desired course) after conducting their divebombing attack. Adding an "attack with guns" waypoint didn't work but it's possible it might work with rockets? If it did work then maybe an invisible/non functioning weapon could be added in a similar way that a "ghost" flak cannon affects the behaviour of some AA guns. Torpedo bombers as well do the same thing. From memory, (?) the P-40E that was with the old DOA/Milne Bay campaigns also refused to follow waypoints, while some other P-40s were ok, which makes me think that there is at least something in the air or cfg files that contributes to the problem. I first noticed this when having a P-40 AI flight take off in front of me, and watched them just fly off in a straight line, ignoring waypoints unless I warped. I think that something similar happens, typically in Quick Combat were the fighters/AI decide that they have had enough and just fly off in a straight line, and no amount of shooting at them will wake them up. An interesting similar problem I had with some (non-stock) B-24s was somehow fixed after I replaced them with stock B-25s, flew the mission, and then went back to the original misbehaving B-24s, with no other changes to the mission/files!!

  5. #55
    Regarding the Alphasim Stuka not pulling out of its dive, maybe the MOIs in its airfile are too high?
    Unfortunately I'm at work and can't check it the next couple of days, but if you have aired, you can look at the entry and compare it with Wolfi's Ju-87B.

  6. #56
    Hi Skylane,

    They are a little high for pitch and roll but nothing too bad, I've seen much worse.

    Currently they are:
    Pitch: 11059.00
    Roll: 7243.00
    Yaw: 10484.00

    Should be:
    Pitch: 9884.02
    Roll: 6689.55
    Yaw: 13159.30

    The values would also need to be added to the aircraft.cfg.

    Cheers
    Aussie

  7. #57
    Aussie,
    To my understanding, but I might be wrong, the MOI values in the airfile govern the ai flight characteristics, while the ones in the Aircraft file are for the player aircraft. As far as I know, they need not be the same for the plane to work properly.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by skylane View Post
    Regarding the Alphasim Stuka not pulling out of its dive, maybe the MOIs in its airfile are too high?
    Unfortunately I'm at work and can't check it the next couple of days, but if you have aired, you can look at the entry and compare it with Wolfi's Ju-87B.

    also check the pitching moment entries in the .air file

  9. #59
    Hi Skylane,

    There seems to be a bit confusion when it comes to this but the aircraft.cfg values have priority as stated in the aircraft container SDK and various other sources on the net. Only the values that appear by default in the aircraft.cfg have this priority to my knowledge. You can match them if you like but it'll make no difference. As an example, and just for giggles, I changed the MOI in the air file for the Stuka to the below and it had no effect on the AI behavior.

    Pitch: 7243000
    Roll: 11060000
    Yaw: 144840000

    Cheers
    Aussie

  10. #60
    SOH-CM-2023 Deathwind's Avatar
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    Seems to me the original problem wasn’t the plane pulling out of a dive but it just wouldn’t follow the rest of the waypoints. My understanding was the bombing part was spot on but it’s the waypoint thing. First unless I was intending on using that plane I wouldn’t worry about fixing it I would go ahead start using the one Intended to ad it might be bugs needing worked out it too. My understanding to was the Val was used and didn’t follow the waypoints so is anyone having issues with Val not following waypoints? The reason to try the Val was to determine if the Alpha Stuka had a problem with the airfile or was the problem most likely the mission itself. What other aircraft would be recommend to try in order to test if it’s the plane or the mission? Best to eliminate possibilities as we go otherwise we forever be chickens with our heads cutoff. I don’t know maybe it’s me but it sounds like we are starting to have more issues than we originally had in the first place and dissecting an airplane that’s only a placebo to begin with and well I must confess I don’t apparently speak the same language here I just don’t get it but do as you will or whatever you thinks best.

  11. #61
    Deathwind
    486_Col_Wolf mention having planes set to cat 3 crashing into the ground dive bombing.No one said much about that except for the Alphasim Ju-87 because it crashed all the time when dive bombing.That's the plane he's been using so I thought I'd mention it.Guess that is my bad to point out things that were none back about 20 years ago.

    Hiede

  12. #62
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    I have read your comment and I do understand what they are talking about but it doesn’t make a great deal of sense to me to be bothering with one airplane right now. Be better to find out the root cause of the planes not following the waypoints. The way to test if it’s the planes and you can use more than one just grab some known dive bombers the dauntless the Val run it see what they do make sure they are set for dive bombing first can’t forget the little stuff. Gather the results then go from there. Now I understand I probably am being a little mean and they just wanted to put off the mission and work on the Alpha bomber instead. I do apologize if that offended anybody but me personally I keep coming here hoping the problem was solved or near solved only to see we are dealing with other things not really going to help get the job done. Now in the beginning correct me if wrong I don’t bite the bombers were dive bombing correctly just not going on to the waypoints. Now the bomber couldn’t have been spot on if the airfile used has been corrupted for twenty years. I remember when it came out I bought it but it died when my computer did. I guess what I’m trying to say is it’s nothing wrong with what they are doing it’s just I don’t think the issue with the mission is gonna be worked out if we are fooling around with everything but what’s needed to be done. The Aloha is a Placbo because it’s not the correct modal so going over it’s issues isn’t doing squat for the original topic. It doesn’t need to be that plane it’s any dive bomber is good now that’s already been tested approved and with results from that we should know how to proceed. Sorry if I offended anybody but im like clockwork start here go there not bouncing here and there

  13. #63
    I only mentioned the Stukas crashing when attacking ships. This is the reason I use JU-88's and DO-17's for anti-shipping attacks. The Stukas pull out fine when attacking land based targets. I will try Allen's and Wolfi's Stukas for anti-shipping attacks but the original problem of the Cat3 Stukas not turning at the way point after the attack way point still remains.

    Another thought occurred to me. Warp, and more importantly, way point direction on the tactical display are disabled for player flights if there are still enemy AC in the area. Could the presence of E/A in the area cause the AI bombers to neglect, or not see, their turn way point? I'll try the mission without spawning E/A and see if that changes anything. It may be grasping at straws because they do see the turn to bomb run and attack way points when EA are in the area but at this point anything's worth a try.

  14. #64
    I stopped the EA from spawning and it had no effect on the AI bombers. They continue straight past their turn way point after the attack. I also tried moving the after attack turn way point closer to home and this also had no effect. One thing I may have neglected to mention was that I have the bombers flying in an echelon right formation as was the custom of Stuka flights. After the attack they never reform but rather fan out and fly almost line abreast after the attack.

  15. #65
    _486_Col_Wolf,

    Sorry the delay in getting back onto this. The mission builder problem is not something that can be fixed and as Hiede mentioned warping is the only way you can get the wayward AI's back on track. There're a few problems with the Stuka air file which are causing the problems you're having. As you intend to swap these out with Allen's Stuka's hopefully, they'll fly better and possibly even land without exploding like the current version does.

    Cheers
    Aussie

  16. #66
    Aussie, the warping solution only works if your flight is the bombers. Otherwise your escorting flight warps to the next way point but the AI bomber flight continues on a straight line and pops up wherever they would be after the warp time is allotted. I might just be stuck with using the object (bomber) health trigger to give you mission success if they are at 75% or better when your flight reaches the turning way point.

    As far as the other Stuka versions, I will try these to see if they fare better when attacking ships than the Alpha Sim version. The Alpha Sim version tends to crash into the sea when they attack ships. But for land based attacks it does very well. So if I do swap them out I may at least have a version capable of attacking ships and land based targets.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by _486_Col_Wolf View Post
    Aussie, the warping solution only works if your flight is the bombers. Otherwise your escorting flight warps to the next way point but the AI bomber flight continues on a straight line and pops up wherever they would be after the warp time is allotted. I might just be stuck with using the object (bomber) health trigger to give you mission success if they are at 75% or better when your flight reaches the turning way point.

    As far as the other Stuka versions, I will try these to see if they fare better when attacking ships than the Alpha Sim version. The Alpha Sim version tends to crash into the sea when they attack ships. But for land based attacks it does very well. So if I do swap them out I may at least have a version capable of attacking ships and land based targets.
    What you do then is after you shoot down all the planes,find the ones you are escorting,catch up to them and warp.

    You could also always keep them in sight and break off fighting when they are out of danger.

    You keep forgetting the sim has limitations and is over 20 years old.i don't understand why you and the others don't get it.You started this post March 27 and have over 60 posts in it and no satisfactory solution.That should tell you something.

    Hiede

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