Devs call for Flightsim.to boycott over proposed changes
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Thread: Devs call for Flightsim.to boycott over proposed changes

  1. #1

    Icon4 Devs call for Flightsim.to boycott over proposed changes

    https://msfsaddons.com/2023/02/19/de...posed-changes/


    A good read. Developers such as PuffinFlight (WeLoveVFR), Henrik Nielson (Global AI Shipping Traffic), GotFriends and more have all stated they will no longer be using Flightsim.to. What do you guys think?

  2. #2
    Seems dodgy to say the least.

    Sad, for MSFS it's been the place to go to, but I'm afraid that they shot themselves in the foot with this one. Hubris...

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  3. #3
    I've only just seen this article, thanks for the link. I had four mods on Flightsim.to, which I've now hidden and requested to be deleted, with the message "These files are my intellectual property and I decide who hosts them, not you."

  4. #4
    Changed terms of service February 19 2023: (4.3) When you submit or post User Content to the Service, either directly or through a Third Party Service, you are granting this Site a worldwide, non-exclusive, assignable, unrestricted, sublicensable, perpetual, irrevocable, and royalty-free license to use the User Content. This license includes all consents or waivers necessary to distribute, publicly perform, publicly display, transmit, host, share, keep available, communicate to the public, and advertise, feature, or promote the User Content in connection with the service provided by the Website and across different media now known or developed in the future, (if applicable) only to the extent that such license grant is not limited or restricted by any third-party EULA of content that is included in your User Content. You are not authorized to grant us, and we do not claim, any intellectual property rights or copyrights of third parties. In either case, you grant us a worldwide, non-exclusive, unrestricted, perpetual, irrevocable and royalty-free license to distribute, host, keep available and publicy display your User Content.These licenses do also allow us to advertise and promote your User Content without further notice or permission from you or any other person, and without compensation to you or any other person.
    It this a joke?
    No sorry I cant agree, I havent not many my addons here but I cant agree.
    Webmaster of yoyosims.pl.

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  5. #5
    I guess jankees hasn't read the great news yet, he has a lot of it in there. Seriously, they shot themselves in the foot. Avsim.com and Flightsim.com will come back to favor I feel something and SOH of course .
    Webmaster of yoyosims.pl.

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  6. #6
    Never liked that site anyway.

  7. #7
    Nice summary: https://www.helisimmer.com/articles/...-turning-heads

    Find it really sad that F.to becomes victim of there own "rules" and PR nightmare they got themselves into.

  8. #8
    I'm not clear on what the news is here. Apparently the policy that uploaders are granting a permanent distribution license and can only remove their content at the site's pleasure has been in place for months. Did folks just not notice?

    This premium member thing is new, and given the breadth of license rights the site asserts, I guess it may pave the way to paywalling uploads that the author intended to be free. Is that the issue?

    Whatever they are doing to tick off creators, they better fix it. The site has had a remarkable rise in supplanting traditional forums like SOH, flightsim, simviation and avsim with its up-to-date interface, easy update mechanism, etc. I admit I'm addicted to it. But if the addon creators all left and went back to SOH and flightsim.to died, I'd happily go back to the old forum download pages and never miss flightsim.to. Hopefully they will realize how expendable they are to most users and make a course correction. They need the content a lot more than the creators or users need them.



    August

  9. #9

    Update on file deletion request

    Quote Originally Posted by tiger1962 View Post
    I've only just seen this article, thanks for the link. I had four mods on Flightsim.to, which I've now hidden and requested to be deleted, with the message "These files are my intellectual property and I decide who hosts them, not you."
    I've just logged back in to Flightsim.to and all my files have been deleted as requested. If anyone else feels the same way about their own work, in the Delete request drop-down I selected the "breach of copyright" option and in the further comments box below it I added the message quoted above. Please feel free to use the same message if you wish.
    All my files were uploaded before Flightsim.to imposed their new conditions, I didn't sign up for them and they haven't asked for my consent since. Stuff 'em.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by YoYo View Post
    I guess jankees hasn't read the great news yet, he has a lot of it in there. Seriously, they shot themselves in the foot. Avsim.com and Flightsim.com will come back to favor I feel something and SOH of course .
    Just reading this, yes I have a few paints there. I never realised I was not allowed to remove them, which is sort of bugging me. If I'm not allowed to remove my own work, then it's no longer my work, as they decide what happens with it...odd, that.
    On the other hand, removing everything and uploading it here or on avsim, jeezz, just the amount of work...
    Maybe I should just find another hobby, my wife won't complain...
    You can find most of my repaints for FSX/P3D in the library here on the outhouse.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by K5083 View Post
    I'm not clear on what the news is here. Apparently the policy that uploaders are granting a permanent distribution license and can only remove their content at the site's pleasure has been in place for months. Did folks just not notice?

    This premium member thing is new, and given the breadth of license rights the site asserts, I guess it may pave the way to paywalling uploads that the author intended to be free. Is that the issue?
    Here are a few statements from the developers themselves:


    PuffinFlight on Reddit:

    Shady AF. I don't have anything against premium. But let's say one day they decide to go full on paywall. Fine. It's their business. But I don't want to have my add-ons on a paid site. With these terms I can't remove my files. They say that I can permanently unlist them. Awesome. But will they be deleted? No. So they just need to link to them from some place and voila, nothing happened, that still put out my files for download.

    Too bad there is no real modern alternative. I'm considering pulling out my add-ons. Was supposed to release last region of We Love VFR in upcoming weeks, but I'll need to rethink my release strategy.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/flightsim/c...nsues/j93gnn3/

    GotFriends official statement:



    Emerald Scenery Design's statement:

    https://www.facebook.com/EmeraldScen...ac7Xj2eVrjQC5l

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jankees View Post
    On the other hand, removing everything and uploading it here or on avsim, jeezz, just the amount of work...
    There again, allowing them to use your work to attract paying customers to their website for free would be even harder to swallow.

  13. #13
    Sounds like highway robbery of everyone elses work.

    I always though it odd that their website popped up as soon as msfs was released (at least thats how it appeared), and very quickly became the place for freeware, even though there were so many other existing places to host freeware that had none of those shananagans.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by centuryseries View Post
    Sounds like highway robbery of everyone elses work.
    That's exactly what it is. I'm just downloading the latest update for the WBSim/JPLogistics C152 mod from their own google drive "Due to the drama with flighsim.to" as they phrase it on their Discord channel.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jankees View Post
    Maybe I should just find another hobby, my wife won't complain...
    How about rock collecting or painting rocks? Don't hit me, Jan!
    Charlie Awaiting the new Microsoft Flight Sim and will eventually buy a new computer. Running a Chromebook for now!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by jankees View Post
    Maybe I should just find another hobby, my wife won't complain...
    She may not, but the rest of us will revolt!!!

    OK - my serious views... They say they're not charging anything for users to download. That may be true. But they're still profiting from every page that gets displayed with a banner ad. And their countdown to d/l gimmick does one of two things - it either encourages users to buy in with a membership to get rid of them, or it gets users to open a new tab to continue browsing, which in turn displays more ads. Either way, F'.to gets money. By the way, the only way I use that site anymore is with the Brave Browser. I fully support the devs' collective decision. I hope they go back to the stalwarts that have supported our community for decades, like Flightsim and Avsim. I'm seriously tempted to package up my red flashlight effect and upload it to Avsim tonight.
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  17. #17
    https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t...pute/576666/32

    Read that post and the one right after. F$%^sim.to is already getting vindictive.
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  18. #18
    Any good lawyer would likely easily rip them to shreds in court (and adopted judgements over international borders). I have assisted in a number of intellectual property/copyright cases over the years when my former company did skip tracing/asset location & assessment, etc. We saw a lot of matters like this. The problem is, many small scale developers of digital products may not have deep pockets when it comes to hiring a law firm to protect their work. Unscrupulous persons and site owners know this and muscle their way around those who contribute to their website & business model. Some of it is legal, a good bit isn't. Be careful to read the fine print of any agreement & know your rights as a property & content owner. I'm not a lawyer so my advice is if you feel the need to, consult a lawyer who works in this area of practice. The rest of us are probably best off to simply stop dealing with people like this.

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  19. #19
    dont you dare.. many of us enjoy your work!for me its just been looking at the screenshots.but its also art! thank you for what you do!



    Quote Originally Posted by jankees View Post
    Just reading this, yes I have a few paints there. I never realised I was not allowed to remove them, which is sort of bugging me. If I'm not allowed to remove my own work, then it's no longer my work, as they decide what happens with it...odd, that.
    On the other hand, removing everything and uploading it here or on avsim, jeezz, just the amount of work...
    Maybe I should just find another hobby, my wife won't complain...

  20. #20
    There are probably more important things to boycott, like made in China products for example. I like FS.to for the conveneince of one location to find new things and update downloads. Never been a fan of AVSIM or Flightsim pages. Very slow downloads and a pain to locate liveries and updates. But taking ownership for private content seems to have buggered the whole .to expereince. Oh well. Guess it's back to model railroads and slot cars for me. Collecting postage stamps are endless fun for the whole family. - d
    Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken.

  21. #21
    I think that their rules seem to be at odds with Microsoft's Game content rules.

    https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers/rules

    Things you cannot do

    You cannot enter into any agreement with someone else to exclusively distribute your Item even if they don't pay you. We give you this license so that you can make cool Items and share them far and wide. Someone else holding your Item back from wide distribution means: (a) it's not going far and wide; and (b) it is very likely that person is trying to use the Game Content to promote their commercial venture. That's not what these Rules are about.

    Where someone is trying to use Game Content to promote their commercial venture (even just a commercial website), they need our permission to do this. That is not allowed today unless that person has a commercial license from us, and so far, we haven't given anyone permission to do this. We'll let you know if we do.
    and a bunch of other things of the sort.

    Bottom line they can't require you give them exclusive rights and you never lose your rights to them.

    My advise is pull your files and send them a cease and desist letter.

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  22. #22
    Wow. Talk about brazen and defiant in the face of the enormity of the backlash. I've never uploaded anything there and never will. Total highway robbery as was stated previously!
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  23. #23
    OK, some of this discussion might be getting a little out of hand. Talking about fs.to's "robbery" etc. is inaccurate. They are not evil and I don't think they are breaking any laws. You CAN agree to give someone perpetual distribution rights in your IP, if you want to. Microsoft's policies about it are irrelevant. If that's their condition for the service of hosting your IP, and you agree to it, you aren't being robbed.

    Fs.to provides a "free" service of hosting addon content. By now, we all should know that whenever an online product or service appears to be free, it means YOU are the real product - your eyeballs on their ads as a user, your content driving traffic as a creator. There is nothing evil about this, it's no different than Facebook or Twitter. Wait, did I just contradict myself? OK, so maybe it's a little bit evil. But it's standard online practice.

    As a user I think I owe it to the creators whose work I enjoy, to respect their decision if they campaign for a change in fs.to's terms, and to support my old favorite download sites if the creators migrate there. I don't care what others do, but I know which team I'm on.

    August

  24. #24
    There's a lot of drama over a TOS that has been in place almost since the site was "born." I have almost 40k downloads there with my paints and misc files.

    I'll still be uploading to the site - I would never take mine down - I always want users to be able to access my files.
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  25. #25
    I'm done with them. Something always bugged me about that place. Being a developer, ex-developer now, I understand the trust that was held between myself and where I placed my work. .TO stepped on many toes. Fire up SOH, AVSIM and FS.Com. Worked for 20+ years. .TO CAN be replaced.

    Don BP

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