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Thread: Big Radials / Noorduyn Norseman (C-64)

  1. #26
    Ya'll really should be discussing this on the Big Radials Discord, where you can actually bring it up with the devs and designers... Posting here's less useful given that I haven't seen Ozwookie here on S-0 in a long time.

    https://discord.gg/DcrgcAzZuG

    If you're not a Discord user, FYI that you can use it in a web browser without installing anything. Given that almost all MSFS devs are using it for their official support, it's worth the couple of minutes it takes to set up a login.

    Posting there might get a change made, or at least an explanation.

    Posting here is...

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    (TOTALLY cool and appropriate for us to discuss the plane here, of course, but just saying posting over on the Discord is kinda critical if you want the devs to know your concerns.)

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by heywooood View Post
    1) if it isn't changed how many sales will they lose over it (not mine) - a few? a lot?
    2, mine and dvj's... Hehe

    2) most importantly - why wouldn't they just admit the error and fix it, rather than try to tell us we aren't right about it?
    Did they do that ? Over at Discord maybe ?..

    I do wish they were more open in both cases (Goose and Norseman) to reviewing the shape of the front of that cowling though, rather than chiding the community (their customers) for pointing it out.
    I'd love to see that and respond.... I frequented Discord just for the Redwing's Connie when it was 'hot'. Later on i had problem getting in again. Not a fan because of this awkward way to register. But i'll give it go again.

    They dont even have to reshape it - just open it up or 'cut away' about 2" of the cowling face all the way around the circumference of the opening.
    Nothing easier than create a cowling looking exactly like that of a Norseman (or Otter or just about any radial engined cowling, usually the're all the same, seen one seen 'em all), just have enough cross sections to move and scale to round it off and bend inwards. Childs play really, i.e. fun to do

  3. #28
    yes - on Discord - words to the effect that SOH complaints are expected but unfounded

    JanKees also trying to explain to Oz what exactly we're talking about - referencing the 'closed cowl' being rounded over too far and with too small an opening around the engine - while Oz is responding about cowling 'shutters' (aka SU-26 style) for the cold weather application

    They just aren't accepting the observation that the cowling(s) are incorrectly modeled
    enter..the Sandman

    visit Heywood Planes - YouTube

  4. #29
    Hi,

    When they released the Niewport 17, I had made some remarks about the engine cover which was not modeled correctly: the two holes at the bottom right for the oil and gas evacuation were missing.
    They answered that they were not modeling a real model and that the level of details was sufficient for the target buyers (sic)

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by lagaffe View Post
    Hi,

    When they released the Niewport 17, I had made some remarks about the engine cover which was not modeled correctly: the two holes at the bottom right for the oil and gas evacuation were missing.
    They answered that they were not modeling a real model and that the level of details was sufficient for the target buyers (sic)
    Sorry to say , but that is just a childish response

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by DennyA View Post
    Ya'll really should be discussing this on the Big Radials Discord, where you can actually bring it up with the devs and designers... Posting here's less useful given that I haven't seen Ozwookie here on S-0 in a long time.

    https://discord.gg/DcrgcAzZuG

    If you're not a Discord user, FYI that you can use it in a web browser without installing anything. Given that almost all MSFS devs are using it for their official support, it's worth the couple of minutes it takes to set up a login.

    Posting there might get a change made, or at least an explanation.

    Posting THERE is like...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I posted there - Admonished the Leprechaun for disparaging the SOH boards - we are customers after all...
    enter..the Sandman

    visit Heywood Planes - YouTube

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by heywooood View Post
    yes - on Discord - words to the effect that SOH complaints are expected but unfounded

    JanKees also trying to explain to Oz what exactly we're talking about - referencing the 'closed cowl' being rounded over too far and with too small an opening around the engine - while Oz is responding about cowling 'shutters' (aka SU-26 style) for the cold weather application

    They just aren't accepting the observation that the cowling(s) are incorrectly modeled
    Hey Wooood,

    Yeah, saw it. Managed to get in again and after quite a bit of search stumbled over the BR Norseman topic. You and Jan Kees did good ! Nothing easier for them (BR) to thank Jan Kees for the photo and see/acknowledge what he means. (however, no response at all sofar...). Typical that the Editer guy first acknowledges the fact that the cowling is wrong but then quickly cancels his comment because we're using photos of the real thing to compare.... What did he expect ? That we all have a real Norseman in our back garden ?...

    Good to see that little Leprechaun finally posted a gif of himself. We now know who we're dealing with. I certainly wouldn't want that obnoxious little poser in *my* back garden ! I think we can assume we're not getting a Norseman sporting a normal common engine cowling. Be it even just to pick on us ' SOH rivet counters'...

    So be it. I'm going back to Plan B, wait for a radial Otter. Most probabely we don't have to beg for a correct engine cowling there. And if that fails i always have my own atempt for a radial Otter (for FSX/P3D but MSFS made me stow all my model stuff in the back garden...( i *could* invite that little upstart leprechaun into my back garden anyway to have a look at that Otter cowling front, take it home for use on their Norseman for all i care.. ;-)


  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Javis View Post
    Typical that the Editer guy first acknowledges the fact that the cowling is wrong but then quickly cancels his comment because we're using photos of the real thing to compare.... What did he expect ? That we all have a real Norseman in our back garden ?...
    No, what I said was:

    But I also know that they're basing the critique on a few screenshots and camera angles and zoom can be deceiving.
    What I meant by that was that we'd only seen a few screenshots of the SIMULATED Norseman, and MSFS's screenshot function is notorious for distorting images depending on the camera angle and amount of zoom. What i meant was that the cowl might not be as odd in the actual sim without the distortion.

    But yeah, now the devs have insulted S-O and this thread has gotten personal back at them, so yay for typical constructive Internet discourse. Sigh.

    ...DennyA/Editer

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by DennyA View Post
    No, what I said was:



    What I meant by that was that we'd only seen a few screenshots of the SIMULATED Norseman, and MSFS's screenshot function is notorious for distorting images depending on the camera angle and amount of zoom. What i meant was that the cowl might not be as odd in the actual sim without the distortion.

    But yeah, now the devs have insulted S-O and this thread has gotten personal back at them, so yay for typical constructive Internet discourse. Sigh.

    ...DennyA/Editer
    That weird cowling has nothing to do with camera angle or zoom.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by DennyA View Post
    No, what I said was:
    Ahh!.... So that was *you*, Denny ! Right... that *does* make you kind of a 'mole', doesn't it ?... hehe..

    What I meant by that was that we'd only seen a few screenshots of the SIMULATED Norseman, and MSFS's screenshot function is notorious for distorting images depending on the camera angle and amount of zoom. What i meant was that the cowl might not be as odd in the actual sim without the distortion.
    But you also said : "I'll saw that in the photos I've found, it does look like the real cowling isn't as tight or narrow on the engine as the screens I've seen " So that's what i based *my* comment on. And, no, i don't think it's the zoom or angle in the screenshots of the BR Norseman model that makes the front of the cowling look odd. Look at the screenie of the BR Goose i posted above. Same thing, front of the 2 cowlings way too broad, also flat and not bending backwards into the cowling. Check with the photo of the real Goose...

    You also said: and, hey, aren't you supposed to be flying from inside anyway?

    I bet you didn't really mean that, right ? ( it would make all tremendous hard work devs put into creating external models worthless...)

    BR has a problem with engine cowling fronts. So what. No biggie and no need for BR to 'retaliate' because somebody points it out. They should appreciate that there are simmers who take FS aircraft modeling serious, have a real interest in a particular model and know how much time and effort goes into creating it. If there is criticism regarding a particular aspect of a model it is usually ment to make the developer aware so it can be looked into and corrected. That's all. No biggie.

    But yeah, now the devs have insulted S-O and this thread has gotten personal back at them, so yay for typical constructive Internet discourse. Sigh.
    You're right, Denny. Sigh... Aren't we all grown men who should be very much able to deal with a difference in an easy and intelligent way ? Apparently not...

    What emoticon should we go with today, this or this :

  11. #36
    Yeah, it's hard to convey tone online, which makes it worse! My comment about flying from inside was sarcastic as that's often used as an excuse for this kind of stuff. I gotta start using emojis more liberally.

    (I'm Editer on Discord/Xbox/etc. because some jerk(s) stole DennyA on those services!)

  12. #37
    i may get kicked off of the SOH for this, but i cant see the difference in any of it, and i care even less, ive wanted one of these in a flight sim (that i use) for years. and ill get this one.its not going to fly any different in the flight sim with the "wrong" cowling. or am i wrong? i mean its "I"s and "O"s isnt it that create the flight dynamics ? am i wrong? is the modeling of an incorrect cowling going to interfere with the aerodynamics? to the comments above about flying from the cockpit vs outside, i dont care how anyone else flies,and thankfully many of the posters in the screenshots threads do what they do,or we wouldnt have some of the truly gorgeous artwork that we all refer to as a screenshot.

    as a side note,and i hope i dont get in trouble for this,but i chat in a group website,and i post images of some of your screenshots ,with credit due and a link to the page for each one, in several of the chat groups message's areas. i do this as one long time friend asked me to share some on his pages,hes not an aircraft fan, doesnt know a single engined plane from a twin.he lives in california,knows wildfires and knows the tankers when he sees one, not what type/model, but that its an airtanker.i posted one of tankerguy72's shots of his upcoming S2T,"jazzy" ,after about two weeks sent me a PM asking what was going on with the shot? he wanted to know where the pilot was, i said simply "its a screenshot from MSFS2020" he then wanted to know what that was..he had thought it was a photograph taken plane to plane, like michael o'leary used to do.. he and his adult son are looking into MSFS2020 now because of that one screenshot.so , my point to all of that is.

    the exterior visuals matter

    but not to some of us, i do a walk around before i fly (well i did in P3D anyway) and after i land, just a part of the fun of this hobby to "ME", and prolly only me. the thing im now worried about is this::
    any of you remember, many years ago a fight that happened over something simular? i forget the details, but it ended with bannings from this website,and blockages of many of us SOH'ers from the website to buy the plane, i remember it being one i wanted,i never joined the "fight" but when i tried to buy it, i couldnt, emails went back and forth, and though he admitted i wasnt involved, i was still a registered member here and i was banned.

    weird. though i love the passion involved here with the Norseman and the cowling, come on.. if you hate it that much, and you are mad at the dev over it.. dont get it, but let those of us who dont know the difference,and dont care about it ,just let us enjoy it as built.

    please.

  13. #38
    I hear you, Dave, you want that BR Norseman whatever the heck that cowling front looks like and i bet you and everyone else who has an interest in the BR Norseman (including myself) will get it no matter if the front of the cowling has been reworked or not.

    Btw, no idea why on earth you think you might get kicked off the SOH for posting your comment. Nothing wrong with it, as legitimate as any comment here in this topic.

    And personally i think comments that question a certain aspect of an external model are just as legitimate too. No doubt we all love developers and have the highest respect for them and their often amazing work, where would we be without them. But developers are not gods (although i know of one or two of whom i have serious doubts about that...;-), the're human too and can make mistakes like human species does, nothing more normal, no problemo whatsoever (atleast not in our virtual world..)

    The 'problemo' usually stems from when the well known 'matter of opinion' comes into play. A tricky one indeed, easy to find oneself walking on thin ice all of a sudden. To avoid that it would mean criticizing an FS aircraft model would be totally off limits. Be it about the External model, Virtual Cockpit, Flightmodel, Gauges, Textures, Sounds, you name it. Only platitudes and clichees like Ohhh's and Ahhhh's, Amazing's, Wonderful's and Beautiful's. We could ask ourselves if developers would be happy about that. Actually i don't think so. We wouldn't take them and their meticulous work serious, would we.

    It has been said many times before, nothing wrong with constructive criticism and evaluation. It's an important part of our rather peculiar and idiosyncratic hobby (yep, and that's a matter of opinion ;-) You know yourself too, Dave, absolutely normal that developers release one or more updates after initial release of their newest model. Usually these updates are a result of feedback i.e. constructive criticism and evaluation, by their customers or customers to be.

    Also absolutely normal that there are flightsimmers who couldn't care less about the external part of an FS aircraft model. They never leave the cockpit during flight (i think that's probabely because RW pilots don't do that either...;-) Then again there are those that spend maybe as much time looking at the External model as they spend inside the Virtual Cockpit. Everybody can use our precious FS as he/she likes. No boundaries, no restrictions, no rules, it's a free virtual world and that's the beauty of it. Right ?!

    Myself i belong to the 'As much time looking at the external as sitting in the VC' camp and i have absolutely no problem with the other 'strickly VC' camp. Why would i ??... (only like to say they don't know what the're missing...;-) So when i see something not quite right on a particular new FS aircraft model (been aircraft modeler almost all my life, paper, wood, plastic, digital, you name it, i know an aircraft model when i see one...;-) i see no harm in talking about that, good chance the dev will pick it up and have a look at it.

    That's all, Dave. No developer bashing of any sort, just using my experience as 'lifetime aircraft modeler' to point out something that a dev might be willing to look into. You couldn't probabely care less about that Norseman's engine cowling but some of us really do. We just like BR to produce the best looking Norseman ever and i'm sure that's what we're gonna get !

  14. #39
    Agree - I'll still buy it and hope for improvement down the road..
    My only point here was the question about obstinance - really from either side.
    There is a valid point about the configuration of the cowling being incorrect - and there is a valid point about some in any community setting an unreasonable bar (this isn't one - but you know what I mean)
    As I told them boys at BR, I would buy their Norseman even if they put the cowling on backwards, because I want a good one (at long last) and I'm not such a stickler for EVERY detail before I'll spend a nickel.
    And don't disparage the folks in your own damn market.
    enter..the Sandman

    visit Heywood Planes - YouTube

  15. #40
    Thanks Jan! As long as criticism is meant to be constructive and is delivered in at least a civil (if not polite) manner, then I'll support it. I've seen more bad posting from dev's than I have customers. Although most will take the input and actually do something with it, I've seen others that want to get personal in one way or another and that's when threads start to circle the drain.
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  16. #41
    It's really weird that they're pushing back... The Norseman does have a cowl that wraps around the front of the engine, but from the renderings we've seen (which aren't final and can be odd given MSFS's camera distortion), the way it does look isn't like an Norseman shot I can find. I'd never have noticed it if it wasn't pointed out, but now that it has been, I'm surprised they didn't just say they'd compare it and tweak if they felt like it was necessary instead of just going into a defensive stance.

    We won't know for sure until we see the final product, of course. But I compare to when Flying Iron showed early shots of the P-38 and people pointed out issues with the intakes, and Flying Iron agreed and tweaked them. That makes their product better, and it the responsiveness makes customers happy.

    But there's a happy medium. In the end, it's a sim, and there are compromises with reality. I don't want to see us get to a DCS level of demand for rivet-level accuracy where planes have to cost $70 to make money. It's all in finding the balance...

    I'd like it to be accurate, but at the same time, I fly the Twin Navion at times, and that thing was a visual disaster when it shipped and is just now starting to look like the real planes...

    I think one reason I'm forgiving is that I was having fun even in these days...

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  17. #42
    I think I'll wait for the Otter. I've been around FS for 24 years now. I've seen developers who pick a wanted subject and then find the "one of" that someone made in the 40's and introduce that one, when all the rest of the line didn't look like that version. I have also seen developers not fix things because they do not know how to. From the pictures I am seeing, it seems like cowlings are a weakness with this designer, and perhaps, rather than fighting it, he pays attention to what is being said. I saw on the discord SOH is pointed to and made to sound whiney. Just the opposite. More times than not, the people here are more into the details of the planes, the right and wrongs, and THAT is what should be investigated and corrected if found true, by the developer, especially when money is involved. While I would love to have a new version of the Norseman, I don't want something that is either incorrect or a one of a kind. If what LaGaffe says, and I don't doubt him for a minute, is true about their marketing target and attitude, I wouldn't look at anything they ever do. I'll let this ride out and see if this is corrected when released. I'm also seeing a disturbing trend lately with designers selling aircraft before they are finished and promising three lifetimes of corrections in the future. In today's world, they may not exist a week from now! There goes your money and you now own an unbaked airplane! If this cowl design is not up to snuff when released, I'll bypass the good old Norseman and wait on the Otter (which I would grab anyhow!). I hope they do both a radial and a turboprop version of the Otter! The turboprop version is a truly amazing plane!

    Don BP

  18. #43
    According info very soon, probably April.

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  19. #44
    I was just thinking about this the other day.

    Cowling problems aside, I'm still going to get it!
    -building a new sig as you see this!-

  20. #45
    The product page is up, not for sale yet. https://orbxdirect.com/product/bigradials-norseman

  21. #46
    When it releases, please start a new thread. It's better to have a fresh thread I can stick, and easier for vistors to find the info they're looking for.
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  22. #47
    Still with the wrong cowling I see?
    You can find most of my repaints for FSX/P3D in the library here on the outhouse.
    For MFS paints go to flightsim.to

  23. #48
    OzWookie responded in their Discord that the cowlings varied significantly over the course of production, and the one they're using is accurate for the plane they're modeling.

    So it's not necessarily the wrong cowling, just not the shape that you typically see on most Norsemen.

    I do wish they'd tweak that, but it's not an immersion-killer for me.

  24. #49
    You can find most of my repaints for FSX/P3D in the library here on the outhouse.
    For MFS paints go to flightsim.to

  25. #50
    Can't wait to see what you do with this, Jan Kees!

    I reached out to Mikey McBryan on his YouTube page just to see if there are good hi-res pics of both sides of Joe McBryan's Norseman. There's some decent stuff out there if you search for CF-SAN, but figured it couldn't hurt to see if I can find some hi-res source files for potential painters.

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    https://www.flickr.com/photos/23870098@N04/10528181985/

    ...and video, too.

    https://youtu.be/YxskrqpZio4?t=154

    Interestingly, CF-SAN has not only worn many markings (I like this Saskair livery!), but is also pictured with skis, wheels, and floats.

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    https://www.aerialvisuals.ca/Airfram...p?Serial=60704

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