Should I Switch to VR? August Answers Your Questions!
Results 1 to 25 of 154

Thread: Should I Switch to VR? August Answers Your Questions!

Hybrid View

  1. #1

    Should I Switch to VR? August Answers Your Questions!

    I got the HP Reverb G2 in the $300 sale last month, and have been spending a lot of time with it since it arrived two weeks ago. I thought my impressions might be useful to some of those considering making the jump.

    I"m assuming that you have mid-range, easily MSFS capable but not crazy hardware, that you already use TrackIR or similar, and that you have a decent monitor of at least 1440p and audio tuned to your liking.

    Q: This is a long post, what's the TL;DR?

    Yes, VR is awesome and more than a gimmick now, but it comes with major tradeoffs and you may not want to use it all or even most of the time, depending on your simming habits and style.

    Q: What's so awesome about it?

    If you already have head tracking, VR really only adds one thing to the sim, which is stereo 3D vision, mainly of your own plane. When you're close to things on the ground, there's a little 3D effect on them as well, but human binocular vision only goes out a few dozen meters and this is accurately reflected in VR, so once off the ground, your own aircraft - the interior and such parts of its exterior as you can see out the window - is the only thing you can see in 3D. (By that I mean binocular vision type 3D, of course; the entire world is rendered in 3D in MSFS, as you can see when you move your eyepoint or aircraft.)

    Q: That's it? Is that really a game changer?

    Oh yes, it is. Experiencing your aircraft in stereo 3D definitely makes it a whole new game. None of the 2D YouTube videos or anything you have seen can quite express how much more immersive it is to be in your cockpit in 3D. It really comes alive. As far as being a game changer, it is more of a game changer than when you first got TrackIR - but not entirely in a good way. TrackIR just made one thing about the sim much better, but with basically no downsides. It was now much easier and more intuitive to look around compared with the hat switch, but you were still playing the same game. VR comes with LOTS of downsides and is suited to a different way of experiencing and enjoying the simulator. It has the big benefit of seeing your cockpit in 3D, and I can't stress enough that this is very cool, but at the expense of making almost everything else about the sim noticeably worse. These trade-offs may not be for you, or may not be for all of your flying.

    Q: What are these downsides?

    First is the loss of visual quality. Almost no matter what kind of rig you run, you'll have to dial down your graphic settings to maintain good frame rates in VR. You may have to turn down your texture sizes and draw distances, give up volumetric clouds and lighting, turn off ambient occlusion, lighting and fog effects, and you'll get used to seeing antialiasing and other artifacts that you might have considered unacceptable on a screen. You may even have to turn off all AI air, land, and sea traffic, which can make the world a pretty quiet place. (I have kept my traffic settings at around 5% so the world isn't completely dead.) Even if you have a fast rig and don't dial down your settings so much, it's being delivered through a headset projector that is very inferior in resolution, color, and contrast to a decent screen. VR headsets have a sharp zone or "sweet spot" in the center, and the Reverb is known for having a relatively small one; outside of the area directly in front of your eye, you get a lot of blur and color fringing. I was warned about this but was still surprised at how much the visual quality fell off away from center.

    Second, you lose a lot of field of view. The visual area in a VR headset is a roughly circular patch that takes up only about 98 degrees of your 190 degree (horizontal) field of view, so there is blackness above, below, and especially to either side of your viewing area where you are expecting to see stuff with your peripheral vision. The effect is not so much of being surrounded by a cool 3D world as looking through a peephole at a cool 3D world. This is one of the differences between really high-end VR headsets and consumer units like the Reverb, and I'm sure will be improved in future generations at the consumer price point.

    Third, the VR headset will become yet another source of MSFS freezes and CTDs - just what you needed, right?

    Fourth, cockpit interaction is more difficult. The gauges are harder to see and read, and you'll be switching among instrument views more than you used to in order to get a good look at them. Mouse control of the instruments is wonky which will result in irritating, and occasionally fatal, extra seconds of head-down time when you need to change a radio frequency or something. Map as many controls as possible to your HOTAS where you can remember their location by feel.

    Q: What kind of sim flying is VR best for?

    The kind where you want to experience your aircraft and drink in a nicely done aircraft model. Planes with a lot of external geometry visible from the seat, like biplanes or twins with big engines beside you like a C310 or P-38, look especially cool. Any kind of cockpit, whether it's a little Pitts hole or a big flight deck with a cute copilot, benefits equally from the VR experience if it's well modeled. You'll see and appreciate details that were invisible on a screen. Once you are on autopilot, you can even physically get up and sit in another seat, or walk back into the cabin if your actual room is big enough, in a true 360 degree, 1:1 scale environment.

    Aerobatic flying and abrupt maneuvers in VR can be a little stomach-turning. The headset isolates you from any fixed point of reference, so there's a disagreement between what your eyes are seeing and what your guts and inner ear are telling you that is not resolved by seeing stuff in your room next to your monitor. I can do a full acro routine without barfing, but not quite without thinking about barfing. The other moment that gives me a twinge is the moment the plane comes to a complete stop after taxiing in. I just can't get used to seeing the plane come to a stop without feeling the deceleration.

    On the other hand, the spatial awareness that comes with VR can improve piloting in certain ways. I find it much easier to do slips on approach in VR, and I think my turn coordination and landings are generally better, although VR tends to create the illusion that you are higher off the runway than you are, so I am touching down a little earlier than I expect.

    Helicopter flying is probably great in VR because you can get up close to things for a good 3D look. I still haven't quite got the hang of choppers but this is an incentive for more practice.

    For me personally, it is also nice that my VR headset doesn't care about the ambient lighting conditions. On a clear winter day like today, when the sun comes through my south-facing window and lights me up to a degree that hopelessly confuses my TrackIR, VR is the only way I can fly. So that's nice.

    Q: What kind of sim flying is VR not so good for?

    If you want to enjoy MSFS's wonderful scenery, you might be better off going back to the monitor. There's no stereo 3D effect in VR of anything that far away, and the graphic quality and panoramic field of view are so reduced that scenery peeping is not very rewarding. When you go back to your monitor on the graphics settings you're accustomed to, you'll be amazed how sharp, saturated, and generally better it looks. And more animated, with all the traffic settings turned up.

    If you typically make use of a lot of other open windows while in MSFS, such as Little Navmap, other charts and navaids, etc., VR may be difficult for you. There are apps for looking at PDF files and browser windows from within the 3D environment, but reading documents in VR is no fun. It will be hard to make out the fine print and it will be artificial and immersion-breaking. Plus, all those open windows are using CPU and GPU resources and costing you frames per second. The good news is that it is fairly easy to pop in and out of VR within a flight, so you can get your route and procedures all sorted on the monitor, program your nav instruments as desired, then go to VR for the actual flying, with maybe the occasional jump back to 2D to check an approach plate or whatever. So far I mainly stick to VFR in VR and rely on either the aircraft's GPS unit or the toolbar VFR map to figure out where I'm going.

    Vatsim and multiplayer are going to be a bit of a challenge with VR, but doable if you're very familiar with the procedures and don't need to look up a lot of stuff. I'm still ironing this out but really want to make it work, because the audio interaction and the display of Vatsim air traffic would add a lot to the immersiveness that VR provides.

    Q: How is the sound?

    Meh, okay I guess. After the first few minutes, I turned off the headset sound and went back to my speakers. I prefer the ambient noise of my aircraft to be ambient, not piped into my ears, and have nice speakers with a subwoofer for engine rumbles etc. that sounds far better than the headset speakers. I wish I could pipe just the voice from ATC into the headset, but so far I can't, because Windows and MSFS don't recognize the headset as a speaker. I think the headset mic picks up a lot of ambient noise, too, so it's not great for Vatsim. I'm actually sticking my old headphones and mic over the VR headset now when on Vatsim, which seems a little silly but is the way that works best for now.

    Q: Can I use it with glasses?

    Modestly sized glasses will fit in the unit, but I don't like it. The peephole effect is even worse if you wear glasses and have to use a spacer that moves your eyes farther from the headset lenses. Glasses make it more difficult to make fine adjustments in the position of the headset on your face, and a few millimeters of such adjustments can determine whether you see any sharp sweet spot or not. Personally, I found that the vignetting became unacceptable and dug out some old contact lenses to use when I'm doing VR. The alternative is to get corrective lenses that go into the headset, which I'll probably do eventually, but I'm willing to bet that they further reduce the sharpness and add more chromatic aberration.

    Q: Is it good with sims other than MSFS?

    Yes, I've used it with P3Dv4, P3Dv5, IL2:Great Battles, and a couple of car sims, Assetto Corsa and Project Cars 2. VR actually improves all of those more than it improves MSFS.

    Q: Really? Which is best?

    The best experiences I've had have been in IL2, where I get nice frame rates with relatively little dialing down of settings, the entire game UI is usable through the headset, the cockpits are beautifully modeled, the systems are simplified with nothing to click in the cockpit anyway, and the entire experience is just the visceral joy of flying the old fighters. The only real downside is the difficulty of looking around you because of the FOV limitations and the need for 1:1 head turning. I guess you could argue that's at least partly authentic to the real-life experience, but I could do without the authentic neck strain.

    Q: How about P3D?

    P3Dv4 and v5's VR support is excellent and with their lighter graphics processing load, it is easier to maintain good frame rates, and they never CTD. From the cockpit, many older planes made for P3D and FSX look fantastic in VR. It really rejuvenates the old sim. I'm going through my over 400 installed planes in P3D and experiencing their cockpit modeling in a new light - not always a flattering new light, but quite often. Of course the FSX/P3D era products from the best publishers like Aeroplane Heaven, Milviz, Just Flight, Carenado/Alabeo, Flight Replicas, A2A/Aircraft Factory, Aerosoft, Vertigo, etc. are consistently beautiful; you would think they were designed for VR originally. The ones from the next tier of publishers, like RealAir, Golden Age Sims, Iris, CR1, Virtavia, and Flysimware are a bit more hit/miss but a lot of it is excellent. And then there are our favorite freeware authors, like Rob Richardson, the late Tim Piglet Conrad, Dave Molyneaux, Dave Garwood, Milton Shupe, Stuart Green, Manfred Jahn and many others, whose work holds up beautifully in 3D. It's a pleasure to fly these old planes again and the 3D cockpit takes the focus off of that bad P3D scenery. P3D also has the pop-up instruments and controls which can be a big help, especially the radios and GPS units. For that reason, plus the greater stability and computing power headroom, I might be inclined to use P3D rather than MSFS for any VR Vatsim flying.

    Q: What about the car sims?


    In some ways VR does the most for car sims, because the other cars and track elements are close enough to you that there's still a 3D stereo effect associated with them, and it's helpful in judging your turns and positioning. Negotiating Bannochbrae in an old Ferrari in the rain has been among the most fun I've had with the Reverb thus far.

    Q: What about smut? Is it good for smut?

    I'm afraid I have no idea what you are talking about.

    Q: So are you glad you did it?

    I don't regret the $300 I spent on my unit. At the full price of $600, I might regret it. I won't use it for all of my flying. Right now I'm binging on it, but it will probably settle back to about half my flying in MSFS. Probably I will use it 100% of the time in P3D, IL2, and the driving sims though.

    August

  2. #2
    SOH-CM-2024 jmig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Lafayette, LA
    Age
    76
    Posts
    6,004
    Blog Entries
    6
    A very nice write up and critique. Your conclusions are sound, and in my opinion (I have been using the G2 for two years) mostly accurate.

    Flight simming is about perception. How accurate to real life do you perceive VR to be. As a former real world pilot, the 3D perception is important to me. I recently, because of software issues, had to go back to IRTrack for a while. I could now see the room in my peripheral. It really took away from the perception of being in a real cockpit. Besides, my cute little skinny, half sitting, half reclining, motionless co-pilot just wasn’t the same. 😊

    For me, the advantages of VR far outweighs the disadvantages. I recognize that my two-year-old computer is still fairly powerful. Thus, I do not suffer many of the visual and game play degradation you describe. I think that as time goes forward and people upgrade their hardware systems VR will become more and more accepted by hard core simmers.

    FYI for those who need reading glasses, a company named VR Wave makes snap in prescription lenses to match your glasses.
    John

    ***************************
    My first SIM was a Link Trainer. My last was a T-6 II


    AMD Ryzen 7 7800 X3D@ 5.1 GHz
    32 GB DDR5 RAM
    3 M2 Drives. 1 TB Boot, 2 TB Sim drive, 2 TB Add-on Drive, 6TB Backup data hard drive
    RTX 3080 10GB VRAM, Meta Quest 3 VR Headset

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by K5083 View Post
    I wish I could pipe just the voice from ATC into the headset, but so far I can't, because Windows and MSFS don't recognize the headset as a speaker.
    Are your speakers USB or 3.5mm jack?
    Thermaltake H570 TG Tower
    X670 Aorus Elite AX motherboard
    AMD Ryzen 9 7900X 12-Core Processor
    NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070
    NZXT Kraken X cooler
    32GB DDR5 RAM
    750 Watt PS
    Windows 11 Home

  4. #4
    the first thing I removed was the headphones, I prefer my headphones or speakers
    Webmaster of yoyosims.pl.

    Win 10 64, i9 13900 KF, RTX 4090 24Gb, RAM64Gb, SSD M.2 NVMe, Predator XB271HU res.2560x1440 27'' G-sync, Sound Blaster Z + 5.1, TiR5 [MSFS, P3Dv5, DCS, RoF, Condor, IL-2 CoD/BoX] VR fly only: Meta Quest Pro

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Clayton View Post
    Are your speakers USB or 3.5mm jack?
    3.5mm audio.

    August

  6. #6
    USB audio devices typically show up as a separate audio device. Back in the days when I flew online regularly with TeamSpeak, I had that running through my USB headset/mic and the FS9 audio running through the speakers. I have yet to try the headset simulation option in the sim though.
    Thermaltake H570 TG Tower
    X670 Aorus Elite AX motherboard
    AMD Ryzen 9 7900X 12-Core Processor
    NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070
    NZXT Kraken X cooler
    32GB DDR5 RAM
    750 Watt PS
    Windows 11 Home

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Clayton View Post
    USB audio devices typically show up as a separate audio device. Back in the days when I flew online regularly with TeamSpeak, I had that running through my USB headset/mic and the FS9 audio running through the speakers. I have yet to try the headset simulation option in the sim though.
    Thanks, but that is not the issue. Both USB and 3.5mm headphones show up as audio devices on my system, as do my speakers. It's the Reverb headset that does not. When not using VR I always use the MSFS headset simulation to pipe just the comms through my headphones, whether USB or 3.5mm, while the other sound goes through the speakers. But the Reverb is not recognized as an audio out and is not selectable as such in either Windows or MSFS. I can switch the sound to the Reverb using the Windows Mixed Reality config panel, but it's all or nothing.

    August

  8. #8
    SOH-CM-2023
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Netherlands
    Age
    65
    Posts
    1,232
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thank you. August, for this elaborate analysis. I have flown exclusively with VR in Il-2 and DCS (I have Microsoft FS but somehow I don't fly in it much) and I can only add three things:
    1: It takes time to get used to VR. In time, you might adjust your way of flying to negate the downsides.
    2: If you can, give VR a try by visiting someone who has it. Then go home and think over carefully what you have seen. And then decide whether to buy it or not.
    3: VR will get better in time. But uf you wait until it's perfect, you can wait forever, if only because your norms will evolve as VR gets better. If you take the plunge now, you will have spent money that you cannot spend on the next generation of VR. But you also will have the enjoyment that the present generation of VR can give you.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by K5083 View Post
    It's the Reverb headset that does not.
    Gotcha. Sounds like a tech issue with the people that make the headset. Just spittin' in the wind here, but is there possible an updated driver of any kind?
    Thermaltake H570 TG Tower
    X670 Aorus Elite AX motherboard
    AMD Ryzen 9 7900X 12-Core Processor
    NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070
    NZXT Kraken X cooler
    32GB DDR5 RAM
    750 Watt PS
    Windows 11 Home

  10. #10
    Thank you very much for your elaborate report on VR, August. Very much appreciated !

    Personally i'm sitting on the fench for many years already to step into the 3D virtual world of flying but sofar never felt like jumping off of the fench and take the big step. I think this may have very much to do with constantly giving my eyes only the 2D experience of reading about it and never the actual real 3D deal of what VR is all about.

    Even in a great and very much to the point elaborate report like yours i simply cannot find the decisive factor. I guess 'see for yourself' is the only way.

    So maybe you can help me with that, August.

    The only experience i have ever had with artificial 3D depth perception is a 3D TV demo that was broadcasted about half a century ago (and, even until this day, never ever has something solid come out of that.... remarkable, isn't it... or maybe it has and it's called VR now ?...) and i'll never forget because of the amazing impact it had on me and i suppose on everone else that watched it thru these '3D glasses'.

    Then there came something similar on the market during the 60's of the past century (while already invented in the 1930's ) : the well known and very successful '3D Viewmaster' which used small stereo slides to trick our eyes seeing depth in them ( loved that thing ! ):



    I bet you are familiar with this wonderful gadget, August ?

    If affirmative, can i ask you if this is about what i can expect when i first experience MSFS thru a VR set ?

    Would you say VR works the same as viewing a 3D movie or demo on TV thru such a 2 colored 3D glasses method ? I mean where you'd better duck your head to avoid an arrow that's coming straight at you ?...

    Btw, my rig is i9 9900K, RTX 2080Ti, Asus RogStrix Z390-F, DDR4 64GB, W10, Dell 32" Curved, 2560X1440, MSFS Silky Smooth. Would you say that would deffinately be sufficient to try VR without being dissapointed right away ?

    Thanks very much again, August !

  11. #11
    3D movies or video games that were sold in the 90's and 2000's were needing special glasses to be viewed.
    However, with these technologies, you still need to keep your eyes on the TV. The picture is still sitting in front of you a few feet away and won't move away from there. It's not like you can turn your head around and see what's around you, because if you turn your head, then you won't see your TV anymore It's the same limitation as TrackIR, in fact... excepted the movie picture doesn't move according to your head movements...

    VR games are totally different, because the screen is sitting on your nose, and stays there, no matter how you turn your head.
    That screen can be single or twin, but in any case, each eye gets its own picture to look at. You're not looking at a picture a few feet away.
    Until that point, it's the same as that picture toy you are showing above, right ?
    However the headset reproduces ALL of your head movements (rotations and translations) to the same extend in the video game (and also it shows the picture in a "larger" way than that toy).
    As a consequence, you don't feel like the picture is in front of you anymore; you are inside the picture. You turn your head to the right, and you see what's on the right of you.

    If you translate that to a flight sim, it means you're not seeing a virtual cockpit on the screen in front of you anymore. You feel like you are actually sitting inside that cockpit (excepted you cannot touch it, which is kind of weird the first time ) . You have to rotate your head around to look around. If you want to imitate the open-cockpit pilots that were putting their heads aside to view forward, you just do that (careful, the border of the cockpit is not really there to put your elbow, so you might fall from your chair ).

    The bad sides of VR have already been summarized I think, and they are not "bad" enough for most of us to come back to 2D. That tells a lot, I think.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Javis View Post
    Then there came something similar on the market during the 60's of the past century (while already invented in the 1930's ) : the well known and very successful '3D Viewmaster' which used small stereo slides to trick our eyes seeing depth in them ( loved that thing ! ):



    I bet you are familiar with this wonderful gadget, August ?
    Oh yeah, I had one of those.

    I'll tell you when I first became fascinated with 3D, though, was in high school geography class. We had a book of stereo aerial survey images and a little 3D viewer, really just two lenses on a wire stand, that you would position over the photos. Such a device is shown on this thread, https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/thread...ography.54941/. This was how aerial surveying and also WWII aerial photo-reconnaissance was done, with the stereo image obtained by the plane taking two photos a few seconds apart as it overflew the target. This was also when I learned to train my eyes to separate so that I could view 3D stereo pairs without a viewer. Sometimes when I'm on a commercial flight over some nice scenery now, I will take pairs of photos out the window with my phone, producing a 3D image of the landscape below. There was a fashion in 3D still photography back in the 1960s, with some fairly high-end cameras that recorded two images on a 35mm frame. I'm a collector of old cameras but don't have one of those yet.

    If affirmative, can i ask you if this is about what i can expect when i first experience MSFS thru a VR set ?

    Would you say VR works the same as viewing a 3D movie or demo on TV thru such a 2 colored 3D glasses method ? I mean where you'd better duck your head to avoid an arrow that's coming straight at you ?...
    VR is better. When you use something like the red/blue method, you have to sacrifice some color or brightness information to add the 3D information to a single image, and I have always found the results underwhelming. VR generates a separate image for each eye and although the headset image quality isn't close to that of a good monitor, it's not terrible. You get used to it, and it's really quite sharp in the center. You will definitely appreciate your beautiful monitor when you go back to 2D, though. The closest thing you might have experienced is one of those cheap viewers that you can insert your smart phone into to watch VR videos from YouTube and such, but the Reverb is much better quality obviously. The 3D effect is very convincing. You will really feel like that gunsight in the P-51 is going to bop you in the face if you aren't careful, peeking around the Merlin to see where you're taxiing is sublime, and many times I have found myself reaching for the controls where they are on the screen rather than where they really are on my desk.

    As far as likely first impressions, if you want to be really impressed by VR, get a friend to let you try his unit that's all set up and dialed in. (Edit: I see stickshaker gave exactly this advice while I was typing this.) There's an immediate Wow factor and you'll likely be hooked right away. When setting up your own unit, the Wow is rather diluted by the setup and tuning process. It takes a few hours of work before you can just pop it on and immediately enjoy a good experience, and really, people keep tweaking the thing for weeks or longer. I am still cautiously dialing my MSFS settings back up to see what I can get away with without hurting my fps. If you want an awesome immediate first experience and you play IL2:Great Battles, I might recommend setting it up in IL2 first, VR is spectacular in that game with little or no tuning. I'm looking forward to the release of VR for Cliffs of Dover, which is now in beta.

    I will let others speak to the adequacy of your rig. Mine uses all AMD chips and I don't really speak Intel/Nvidia. Yours sounds better than mine, though. I don't think you'll have trouble maintaining decent frame rates without dialing your settings down too much. You'll probably even be able to turn on post-processing in OpenXR Tools and improve MSFS's contrast and color balance, which is a nice benefit of the headset if you have the computing power. But not much of the degraded video experience of VR is due to dialing down settings, most of it is really due to the optical and resolution/color/contrast limitations of a consumer VR headset, which won't change no matter how good your rig is.

    August

  13. #13
    Senior Administrator PRB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    MO (KSUS)
    Age
    62
    Posts
    9,410
    I also have the G2. For me there is just no going back to 2D, unless it’s for a sim event of some kind, like a race. I tried Track IR some years ago. I didn’t like it at all. To me it felt like I had to “re-train” myself on how to look around. And any head movement was interpreted as more “looking around”, produced movement of the world on the monitor. I Just couldn’t get used to it. As for the field of view of the G2, I didn’t even notice it at first. I would describe it as wearing a hoodie than peering through a peep hole. I setup my sim so that there is nothing I need to do that requires the keyboard. Rudder and elevator trim is assigned to the hat switch, since I don’t need it to look around anymore. Gear, tail wheel lock, altimeter and compass reset, “seat” (eyepoint) adjustment, all that stuff is assigned to buttons on my stick and throttle unit. One button even toggles the in-cockpit 2d map window, in case I get lost in a non-glass cockpit ship. Working other switches in the cockpit is a bit of a pain, but not a show stopper. For those who like doing long 14 hour flights from LAX to Brisbane, VR might be more trouble that it’s worth, but I only do short flights, so that’s no factor.
    MB: GIGABYTE GA-X299 UD4 PRO ATX
    CPU: Intel(R) Core™ Processor i9-10900X Ten-Core 3.7GHz
    MEM: 64GB (8GBx8) DDR4/3000MHz Quad Channel
    GPU: RTX 3080 Ti 12GB GDDR6
    OS: Win 10 Pro 64bit
    HP Reverb G2

Members who have read this thread: 1

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •