Should I Switch to VR? August Answers Your Questions! - Page 3
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Thread: Should I Switch to VR? August Answers Your Questions!

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by YoYo View Post
    remember that you have many 3D presentation, take for example this about Apollo mission HD https://store.steampowered.com/bundl...ollo_11_VR_HD/ (I always show it when someone comes to me and never used VR headset).
    This is free, nice presentation too https://store.steampowered.com/app/5..._VR_Spacewalk/ and Lancaster mission (maybe not good quality but nice still https://store.steampowered.com/app/5..._Berlin_Blitz/.
    Thanks YoYo !

    I *do* understand that with all these VR demo's you *do* need a VR Headset, right ?....

    (haven't got it yet, like you say, it's a really big step... ;-)

  2. #52
    For sure!
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  3. #53
    Javis, seeing as your also a race and truck simmer VR will blow your socks off.
    All the main modern race sims support it and suddenly you will get a totally different perspective on thing like road camber and elevation changes.
    I think in a very short time you will see your lap time start to drop.

    Also both Euro and American truck sim work great with VR. They do need a little bit of setting up though Steam before it works but its pretty simple to do and there's instruction in the discussion pages on Steam on how to do it.
    I haven't flown in a couple of weeks because I've spent most of the holidays trucking in VR.
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  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerous Beans View Post
    Javis, seeing as your also a race and truck simmer VR will blow your socks off.
    Right! Sounds good to me, DD. Thanks! Don't need 'em anyway.. ;-)

    All the main modern race sims support it and suddenly you will get a totally different perspective on thing like road camber and elevation changes.
    I think in a very short time you will see your lap time start to drop.
    I can certainly relate to that. I'm sure it will deffinately reinstate my enthusiasm for race sims as well. Certainly since MSFS it has been going down hill so to speak even despite the utter beauty of Project Cars and Assetto Corsa, just like my Euro- and American trucker status. Everything gets boring at a certain time of heavy involvement. Even happend with flightsims but then i got my trusty Gmax/3dsMax to help me get back in the flying seat. I used to love trainsims very much but i guess that's deffinately something of the past ( or VR must come to the rescue here as well,,,,?) The only game still standing proudly and strong at the top for many years already: Transport Fever 2.

    The true beauty of that is that if you get bored you just start a new map from the wagonloads of maps or scenarios from the workshop. Another piece of beauty is the 'ride along' feature that you won't find in any other city building game. Driving along thru the scenery that *you* have created (for a certain part anyway) in a train cab or horse and cart, a bus, tram, a truck or even along with a citizen in his/her car is kind of magic. And if you want to *fly* over your meticulously created scenery you can do that too. In the mean time taking in the history of transport from the 1850's up to now in its broadets sense. Ok, over and over again of course but somehow i never get bored about the history of transport. ;-)

    Also both Euro and American truck sim work great with VR. They do need a little bit of setting up though Steam before it works but its pretty simple to do and there's instruction in the discussion pages on Steam on how to do it
    . Thanks again, DD, certainly good to know and i will certainly have a look at that once VR starts rolling here ( i do think i'll start with flying though...;-)

    I haven't flown in a couple of weeks because I've spent most of the holidays trucking in VR.
    Can imagine! I used to love it too ! Garages full of beautiful all pimped up trucks. Particularly loved the 'Open Pipe' sounds. Hear them sometimes for real (dunno in the UK/US but here in Holland Open Pipes for trucks are not allowed..) and i always have to smile in myself and think of Euro/American Trucker.. https://youtu.be/7nS4GmAR_ow

    What i would be particularly looking for in Euro/American Trucker in VR is to give me that good, realistic feeling of driving such a big monster because, IMHO, that's what really is missing and the main reason for me to get bored with it eventually. (same thing with Trainsims riding in the cab, it's all so smooth, no waving or shaking about on the suspension like would be the case in the real thing. Only one man who got that covered beautifully, Mr. Mackoy with his unsurpassed freeware 'BVE' ( 'Boso View Express' ! ;-)

    With the graphics cleaned-up to modern standard *THAT* would really be something to look forward to in VR !

    Rambling on, better sign off now. Thanks again DD !

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by YoYo View Post
    For sure!
    Tres bien. That's what i thought. Hehe

  6. #56
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    I used to fly ultralights and flew (with a pilot on my side) several planes (the P-51 Mustang twice) and for me the closest thing to real flying is with VR. Are there 'real' pilots reading this thread who van compare real flying with VR?

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickshaker View Post
    I used to fly ultralights and flew (with a pilot on my side) several planes (the P-51 Mustang twice) and for me the closest thing to real flying is with VR. Are there 'real' pilots reading this thread who van compare real flying with VR?
    At my place, real military fighters pilots (of MiG-29, Su-22) tested DCS for example. Yes, behavior (feeling) like in real life, I also flew and piloted planes myself (An-2, CTSW, Extra 300L). Anyway, Today, VR is already a standard technology in the training of pilots in many countires, including military ones.

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  8. #58
    @ August:

    Dear August,

    Before finally hitting that buy button there's one other thing i'd like to know more about. It concerns this comment you made in your original post : "If you want to enjoy MSFS's wonderful scenery, you might be better off going back to the monitor. There's no stereo 3D effect in VR of anything that far away"

    Truth is that i love MSFS mostly because of its amazing scenery and nothing gives me more pleasure than exploring it usually flying relatively low and slow. What i wanted to ask you is what can you say about the 'stereo 3D effect' in this particular 2D example video. It's a good example of what i would call 'flying low and slow' and if this 'stereo 3D effect' would really be missing here because it is actually too far away i am not sure if i really should push that buy button for the Reverb G2.

    I very much understand that a cockpit, aka VC, will look amazing in 3D, just because everything is as up close to the camera as can be but i'd certainly expect to see the same kind of depth in the scenery below me ( flying that relatively low of course). I can also understand that looking ahead the sense of 3D will deminish.

    What do you say, August, would the scene here in this video example still produce that stereo 3D effect while wearing the Reverb G2 eventhough the scenery is more or less 'far away' ?

    https://youtu.be/Z2HwLeJSAGc?t=439

    Another example if i may. This is also relatively Low but certainly not Slow ! It's a video of the Machynlleth Loop (Mach Loop) in Wales UK in an F-15. A great challenge, very exiting and fun to do (even in 2D ! ;-) Same question here, August, what about that 'stereo 3D effect' here thru a Reverb G2 ? Will there be anything left as far as the scenery is concerned or will it look more or less the same like in this (2D) video ? (did you by any chance try it with the your G2 ?... Would love to hear your comment ! )

    https://youtu.be/CC3Wu8foVmM?t=185

    (is there by any chance anyone else that flies the Mach Loop in VR ??.... ( Hans...?? :-) (if afirm comment please, thanks ! :-)

    I guess what my inquiry here is all about is : when you say "There's no stereo 3D effect in VR of anything that far away", can you be more specific about "far away" ?

    Thanks very much for your reply !

  9. #59
    About the Mach Loop... I haven't flown it yet, however I have made quite a few "low & fast" flights, both in that F-15 or in other jets, and it doesn't matter which details are visible or not. At that speed, you'll definitely get some different perception of the scenery (much better, in my opinion) than anything you would get from a 2D screen.
    To be honest, that video does not impress me much, visually. In the cockpit in VR however, that would be a totally different story.

    Concerning the video about the highres cities: the thing is that *distant* objects/scenery will be a bit blurry in the VR headset. Probably less blurry in a G2 than in my old Explorer, sure, but still more blurry than on a 2D high resolution screen. Still, the VR will offer you a nice perception of the height and distances, that you absolutely don't get in 2D. So yes, you will perceive/see less small details, but what you will perceive will be perceived "better" than on a 2D screen.

    Typically, low&slow flights over cities or hills or mountains or forests etc.... will be much more enjoyable than anything you'll ever feel on a 2D screen.
    Of course, I'm missing a few details of the scenery or an airport. But these details I can still see when I land there (or when I fly close to it enough ).
    VFR / bush flights are a blast in VR.
    Military jets are also a blast, no matter if it's high or low altitude. The MachLoop is going to Machloop your stomach for sure

  10. #60
    I've flown the Mach loop a lot in MSFS in VR and the depth perception is there in spades. I use the loop for my go to flight in all sorts of planes from low speed civies to balls to the wall mil jets and its a total blast in VR.

    I don't get Augusts comment about no stereo effect, I see it at pretty much any distance.
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  11. #61
    I'm not sure either about what he meant, but I just imagine it might be about the the perception of objects perspective...
    Like, when you look at an object that is very close to you, you can really "feel" the difference between what your right and left eyes are seeing. Any small movement of your head translates into major changes to the "picture" that is perceived by each eye. That is probably the "stereo 3D effect" he was talking about.

    And he is right: such an effect is only "very noticeable" on objects that are very close from you.
    If you are hovering in an helicopter just a few meters above the roof of a building, you will get a strong perception of the difference of distance between that roof and the actual ground level around the building.
    But, if you are flying at 2000 feet and look down at that same building, it will be like the roof and the ground are on the same level, more or less.
    It gets worse in VR and the distance, as things become blurry, so you get even less chances to perceive differences of distances / perspectives.
    To translate it simply: it becomes much less impressive.

    However, this is only about the very small details. You still get the perception of distances and heights, especially when you fly above mountains or such.

  12. #62
    Thank you very much Daube and DB !

    I am just protecting myself against dissapointment. Hehe..

    Like i said earlier the only experience i have with stereo 3D image is that View Master of about half a century ago. Still have it and although the picture itself is rather small i totally love the 3D effect, always have. Though there are 3D pictures of cockpits as well most are external views of aircraft flying fairly high above the landscape and the 3D effect aka depth perception is absolutely awesome.

    I know i would be pretty dissapointed if such a depth perception would be anything less thru my brand new Reverb G2 than what i see in my vintage View Master. (to be honest i expect to be blown away.. ;-)

    Love your comment " that video doesn't impress me much", Daube. I absolutely love it (not as much as i fly it myself of course) because of the smoothness and high framerate the sense of speed is something i have never seen before in any of the MSFS predecessors. So if i understand your comment right i *will* be blown out of my ejection seat once i fly the Mach Loop with my G2 !

    Quote Originally Posted by Daube View Post
    But, if you are flying at 2000 feet and look down at that same building, it will be like the roof and the ground are on the same level, more or less.
    Ok, i think i know what you mean. The Jodel from the first video excerpt flies at about 1000/1500 ft over Napels, right ? Must say, when the sequence begins, with the port wing visible, i already have sort of a 3D feeling on my 2D monitor, probabely because of the shadows and light at that particular moment. IMHO truly awesome already !

    Flying at 1000/1500 ft would you say in VR the depth perception would be even more enhanched compared to what we see in the video ?

    In any case, gentlemen, you have convinced me to finally hit that buy button and go for it. Napels from 1000/1500 feet and Mach Loop here i come in 3D !

    Thank you once again, guys !

  13. #63
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    I think the issue here is: is the VR effect realistic? As far as I know human depth perception is only very partly determined by the stereo effect. We seem to mostly judge distance bu size (sometimes relative to other objects), angular velocity, level of detail, shadows, texture and so on. So I doubt whether the stereo effect makes much difference in practice. When flying my ultralight, I only was aware of the stereo effect while landing. Even on downwind leg I judged my position relative to known objects like the runway, only judging distances (altitude for flaring) during the last phase of finals.

  14. #64
    I don't do VR, but if you're looking for something that should give you that kind of depth perception, spawn at KGCN and depart due North. Stay low to the ground, and after a couple of minutes, that ground will drop out from under you as you head over the Grand Canyon. Drop in, find the Colorado River, and follow that as low as you can until you get to Lake Meade. The fastest thing I could ever get through that back in FS9 was either the FS8 Corsair ported over or one of Dave's Lightnings.
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  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Javis View Post
    Love your comment " that video doesn't impress me much", Daube. I absolutely love it (not as much as i fly it myself of course) because of the smoothness and high framerate the sense of speed is something i have never seen before in any of the MSFS predecessors. So if i understand your comment right i *will* be blown out of my ejection seat once i fly the Mach Loop with my G2 !
    Yes, you understood it properly
    The sense of speed you get in VR has nothing in common with anything you see on a "regular" video or 2D screen.
    You will sense it *more*, and *better*. The stereo picture is one reason for that. The other reason is that you will finally look at the scenery (and your cockpit) with a 1:1 scale. Not like most of the videos we see where everything is too small, too zoomed out... and anyways displayed on a "tiny" screen...

    And just wait until you start a flight in an helicopter. That will be the ultimate proof. I mean, I used to be able to pilot helicopters (not good at hovering, but good enough for a flight) on my 2D screen. But once I flew the same helicopter in VR.... I mean, I can't even explain it properly. You'll see that by yourself
    To a lesser extend, the same goes for open cockpits aircrafts. Something like the Jenny or the Waco for example, becomes a completely new experience, due to the depth perception.

    Ok, i think i know what you mean. The Jodel from the first video excerpt flies at about 1000/1500 ft over Napels, right ? Must say, when the sequence begins, with the port wing visible, i already have sort of a 3D feeling on my 2D monitor, probabely because of the shadows and light at that particular moment. IMHO truly awesome already !

    Flying at 1000/1500 ft would you say in VR the depth perception would be even more enhanched compared to what we see in the video ?
    Yes, the depth perception will be enhanced. As it would be in reality.
    When you will be looking at your wing in the DR400, with the city in the background, you will perceive the fact that the wing is just here, while the buildings are down over there. You (your brain) will "feel" it.

    That example that Tom just gave above is also very good.
    I remember a similar experience when I was guiding a friend through his very first VR flight. We took off from Chambery airport in France. There's a mountain on the east, with a kind of 'plateau' (flat area) on top. We flew up there by following the uphill, while keeping very low altitude (like, 300 feet above ground, to enjoy the details of the trees and roads). Then we reached the plateau. All was nice, until we reached the "border" (ridge?) of the plateau, where the ground would suddenly drop by several hundred feet to reveal the full valley with the lake and the airport we started from... I still remember my friend shouting in the microphone (it was a tone very similar to the "holly sh*t" by Rooster in TopGun, when he is sitting in the Tomcat ).

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickshaker View Post
    I think the issue here is: is the VR effect realistic? As far as I know human depth perception is only very partly determined by the stereo effect. We seem to mostly judge distance bu size (sometimes relative to other objects), angular velocity, level of detail, shadows, texture and so on. So I doubt whether the stereo effect makes much difference in practice. When flying my ultralight, I only was aware of the stereo effect while landing. Even on downwind leg I judged my position relative to known objects like the runway, only judging distances (altitude for flaring) during the last phase of finals.
    When you say 'flying my ultralight' you mean the real thing, right ?..

    Maybe the 'trouble' here is that we can't compare our normal real '3D life' to what a 'real 2D life' would look like ? I can imagine it would be a total disaster !

    I think the beauty of artificial 'stereo 3D perception' might stem from the fact that we are so immensily used to 2D 'flat' pictures, movies, TV and such next to our 'normal real 3D life'. Nothing more common and normal then sitting in front of a (2D) monitor for hours or having seen a (2D) movie in a theatre and then happily 'return' to our 'normal real 3D life'. No problem at all. Does that make sense ?... Hehe

    There must've been an occasion where i had to watch out for a ladder not to hit me in the head ( i worked as a windowcleaner for while..;-). Normal practise, no problem, forgotten about it the next day or even earlier. Funny thing is that i still remember that same occasion about half a century ago but this time it was artificial stereo 3D ! It was a demo stereo 3D broadcast on TV where you'd need such a '3D glasses' ( red and green IIRC) to view it. The scene was a fire department demonstration where a big almost horizontal situated ladder would be turned towards the camera and then extended *towards* the camera. Everybody in the room i watched this 3D demo broadcast with, including myself, desperately ducked as fast as possible as not to be hit by that ladder !

    Certainly is one of the reasons i kept on being interested in 'artificial stereo 3D perception' and now, finally, have ordered my first VR head set. ( funny enough i never felt the urge to go and watch a 3D movie like Avatar...)

    Am still amazed by that little 3D View Master as well, but that might also be for nostalgia reasons ;-) ( did you ever see those aviation disks in a View Master, Hans ? )

  17. #67
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    I was indeed referring to my 'real' ultralight, Jan. Unfortunately I never saw aviation films in 3D.
    Your post makes excellent sense. I wonder whether in real life you avoided ladders by combining the cues I mentioned or by 3D vision. Window cleaning on a ladder must have been more thrilling than simulated flight!

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Clayton View Post
    I don't do VR, but if you're looking for something that should give you that kind of depth perception, spawn at KGCN and depart due North. Stay low to the ground, and after a couple of minutes, that ground will drop out from under you as you head over the Grand Canyon. Drop in, find the Colorado River, and follow that as low as you can until you get to Lake Meade. The fastest thing I could ever get through that back in FS9 was either the FS8 Corsair ported over or one of Dave's Lightnings.
    Way ahead of you there, Captain. :-) I used to 'fly the Colorado river' too only from the other side. Take off from Boulder City, head for the Hoover dam and fly the river southwards. Magic ! Even in 2D.

    But i will certainly try your route, thanks !

    My Reverb G2 just arrived !

  19. #69
    Good luck in getting it installed and configured properly.
    Keep us informed in case you need help.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Daube View Post
    Yes, you understood it properly
    The sense of speed you get in VR has nothing in common with anything you see on a "regular" video or 2D screen.
    You will sense it *more*, and *better*. The stereo picture is one reason for that. The other reason is that you will finally look at the scenery (and your cockpit) with a 1:1 scale. Not like most of the videos we see where everything is too small, too zoomed out... and anyways displayed on a "tiny" screen...

    And just wait until you start a flight in an helicopter. That will be the ultimate proof. I mean, I used to be able to pilot helicopters (not good at hovering, but good enough for a flight) on my 2D screen. But once I flew the same helicopter in VR.... I mean, I can't even explain it properly. You'll see that by yourself
    To a lesser extend, the same goes for open cockpits aircrafts. Something like the Jenny or the Waco for example, becomes a completely new experience, due to the depth perception.
    Thanks Daube, all understood perfectly ! Open cockpit biplanes certainly belong to my fav aircraft to fly in FS. It's true, i really can't wait to experience that in VR ! ( won't take long anymore, just got my Reverb G2 here on my desk ! Already impressed about how light it is and how nice it feels on my head.. ;-)

    Yes, the depth perception will be enhanced. As it would be in reality.
    When you will be looking at your wing in the DR400, with the city in the background, you will perceive the fact that the wing is just here, while the buildings are down over there. You (your brain) will "feel" it.
    Ohh, i can imagine it will be difficult to choose what and where to fly first ! Boy oh Boy!! Finally my '3D dream' come true, actually i still can't believe it !

    That example that Tom just gave above is also very good.
    I remember a similar experience when I was guiding a friend through his very first VR flight. We took off from Chambery airport in France. There's a mountain on the east, with a kind of 'plateau' (flat area) on top. We flew up there by following the uphill, while keeping very low altitude (like, 300 feet above ground, to enjoy the details of the trees and roads). Then we reached the plateau. All was nice, until we reached the "border" (ridge?) of the plateau, where the ground would suddenly drop by several hundred feet to reveal the full valley with the lake and the airport we started from... I still remember my friend shouting in the microphone (it was a tone very similar to the "holly sh*t" by Rooster in TopGun, when he is sitting in the Tomcat ).
    Haha, i can imagine !

    Yes, i have been flying the Colorado river frequently in FSX/P3D. Even in 2D absolutely amazing. I can't even begin to think how it will be in VR ! It's a bit late now, this evening i'm going to get myself familiar with setting the G2 up for MSFS. Already noticed plenty of stuff to see about that on the Tube.

    Wish me luck, Daube, and thank you very much again for helping me decide to finally go VR !

  21. #71
    I'm looking forward to your feedback.
    Please keep in mind, you will NEED to lower some graphic settings. And you won't really care, because the details you will loose are the ones you couldn't really see well in a VR headset anyways.
    But if you expect the sim to run as well in VR as in 2D with the exact same settings, you are going to be disappointed. Just expect to have to lower a few things. Not much, but a few important ones.
    For example, at least for your first tries, you might want to set the cloud quality back to "high" instead of "ultra", because that one eats FPS quite a lot.
    Also, don't be scared about lowering the objects and terrain LOD settings.
    Don't hesitate to lower a bit the "render scale" (NOT the world scale!!). The G2 has quite a high resolution. If you lower it a bit, it will still be "high enough"

  22. #72
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    Jan, I only fly with VR. I also have a special seat and a motion platform, and my monitor is set to my right-hand side. I use it only for starting sims etc.

  23. #73
    M.I.R.A.C.U.L.O.U.S.L.Y A.W.S.O.M.E. !.!.!.!.!


    Well, all you VR people probabely say what else is new.... ;-))

    Truly incredible guys, and that's only looking around the Windows Mixed Reality environment. Holy Moly !!!

    No, not started MSFS yet, want to first see the video again how to properly setup MSFS for VR. I am just over the moon that my Reverb G2 seems to be working perfectly. Just not sure yet if i need my glasses or not. Tried the G2 both with and without glasses but can't really see much difference. These are glasses i only use for my computer monitor (about 1 meter away from my eyes), i have another pair of glasses just for reading (a book etc) and yet another for driving my car. I think i'll try those as well.

    Also noticed that nothing has changed regarding normal 2D computer procedures : Holotour crashed during tour selection....Bummer.. And is it correct that, without the controllers ( i *did* buy the set *with* controllers just in case) i can't do anything in the Halo demo world ??.... Don't really care for that game but i like to see the demo anyway. ( i set up the G2 to only sit at my desk and NOT use the controllers ).

    One thing i miss : my dog... Usually lying beside me when i am at my computer. When i pet him and virtually look down beside me he's not there... ;-)

    Ok, i am aware that an incredibly exiting VR flying world lies ahead of me now and i want to thank you guys so much again for showing me the 3D way !

    And a special thanks to August who started all this. Thank you very much, August, as far as i'm concernd starting this thread has been your idea of the year !!

  24. #74
    Hehe, nice to see you progressing carefully

    Another thing to keep in mind, it's very important, during at least the first few sessions:
    - Don't move your head fast. Try to keep your head movements as slow as possible. Think of yourself as a child that is riding in a car for the first times of his life. You will get a bit sick. You WILL get used to it, and your sessions will get longer, but AT FIRST, please go sowly. In fact, I would strongly advise you to avoid helicopter until you get more comfortable with your VR headset.
    - Please try to keep your VR sessions short (10 or 20 minutes). Take your time to stop VR and breathe, give your eyes/brain,internal ears time to rest
    - Also, keep in mind that low FPS makes all of that WORSE. We all want to increase the graphic details, but in VR everything is twice as expensive as it is in 2D. So be double-careful with these settings, and keep your sim as fluid as possible !

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Daube View Post
    Hehe, nice to see you progressing carefully

    Another thing to keep in mind, it's very important, during at least the first few sessions:
    - Don't move your head fast. Try to keep your head movements as slow as possible. Think of yourself as a child that is riding in a car for the first times of his life. You will get a bit sick. You WILL get used to it, and your sessions will get longer, but AT FIRST, please go sowly. In fact, I would strongly advise you to avoid helicopter until you get more comfortable with your VR headset.
    - Please try to keep your VR sessions short (10 or 20 minutes). Take your time to stop VR and breathe, give your eyes/brain,internal ears time to rest
    - Also, keep in mind that low FPS makes all of that WORSE. We all want to increase the graphic details, but in VR everything is twice as expensive as it is in 2D. So be double-careful with these settings, and keep your sim as fluid as possible !
    Thanks Daube !

    Getting a bit used to 'walking around' in this amazing VR environment now, i mean the WMR 'showroom'. Still investigating, so much to see. Wow!!

    But in the mean time trying to get MSFS going in VR. No luck sofar.... From the many video tuts i understand i need to install OpenXR to make the MSFS connection. So that's what i did and now have this : " Windows Mixed Reality OpenXR runtime is installed and active" . It is also set to ON in the settings menu. In the MSFS General Options menu i have assigned bindings for Activate/Deactivate VR Mode and VR Toolbar Toggle. However VR Camera Reset remains greyed-out. When i click "Switch to VR" i get a Missing Binding warning [VR-Camera Reset is required to play VR] with a knob to "Assign Binding" which then takes me to Control Options.... ??

    I have the impression that MSFS is not aware that there's actually a VR headset connected... (the HP logo light on the headset is on)

    Any idea what i am missing or doing wrong here, Daube ? How do *You* connect your VR headset to MSFS ??...

    Thanks very much for any hint or tip !

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