Carenado Gee Bee R-2 and Model Z
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Thread: Carenado Gee Bee R-2 and Model Z

  1. #1

    Carenado Gee Bee R-2 and Model Z

    Because of my interest in the type, I thought I would start a new thread just focused on these two recently-released aircraft. They are available through the MSFS Marketplace at a cost of about $15 USD, together as a single product.

    I blame my dad for my affection for the Gee Bee R-1 and R-2, as they were his favorite aircraft and I simply couldn't avoid it. I was fortunate enough to see Delmar Benjamin's replica R-2 at an airshow once in the 90's, and we of course had models, books and artwork of the R-1/R-2 around the house when I was growing up. I have just always thought it was such a neat looking aircraft, and they represented what state-of-the-art aviation was for their time. I've bought every FS addon Gee Bee R-type going back to the days of FS2002, and as far as accurately depicting the flight dynamics of the Gee Bee R-1/R-2 in FS, it always has seemed to be a great challenge for developers, as no one has ever gotten it quite right. Having been flying the newly-released Carenado R-2 for the past five days, I've gotten a handle on it with consistent takeoffs/landings, to the numbers, that I'm quite proud of, and thought I would write out my experiences with the aircraft to-date as well as add information here about how the real thing is said to fly/handle.

    The original Gee Bee R-1 and R-2 were built in 1932 by the Granville Brothers Aircraft company, located in Springfield, Massachusetts, as successors to their Gee Bee Model Z which had won the Thompson Trophy race in 1931. Where as the R-1, with its larger engine, was designed to compete in the 1932 Thompson Trophy Race (which it won), and would set the landplane speed record, the R-2, with its smaller engine but sleeker cowling and much larger fuel capacity, was designed to compete in the long-distance cross-country Bendix Race.

    The Carenado Gee Bee R-2 happens to be modeled, obviously using laser scans, directly from the replica built by Delmar Benjamin and Steve Wolf, which first flew on December 23, 1991. Aerodynamically-exact to the original, the only compromises to the replica were that hydraulic brakes were installed, the tailwheel was made steerable, and an inverted oil system was installed so that Delmar, an accomplished aerobatic pilot, could fly the aircraft inverted for a prolonged period. When Delmar retired himself from flying his R-2 in 2002, he had put well over 700 hours of flight time on the aircraft, having flown it in displays at airshows all around the US, as well as in France and Germany. In 2004 it was acquired by Kermit Weeks and it has been displayed ever since at his Fantasy of Flight attraction in Florida.

    The engine installed in both the original R-2 and Delmar Benjamin R-2 is the Pratt & Whitney R-985 "Wasp Jr." The racing R-985 installed on the original R-2 is said to have been rated at 535 Hp, where as the one fitted to Delmar Benjamin's was about 510 Hp.

    The visual model and sounds for the Carenado R-2 are absolutely stunning. It is incredible the amount of detailing that is present throughout the cockpit, even in areas that normally you wouldn't easily be able to see. Save for a minor issue with the dice markings on the left side of the fuselage (surely to be corrected in a future update), the visual model is jaw-dropping to behold. I also find the sounds to be of a very high quality and very accurate.

    Flying the aircraft in the sim, I first started out at Reno Stead, with its large runways. I did perhaps as many as six test flights there to see what the handling/airspeeds were like. From there I then took it to Kermit Weeks' place (Fantasy of Flight), where I have since been doing all of my Gee Bee flying. Each flight I've been doing, I've been only using 50-gal of fuel, which is plenty for my 15-20 min flights.

    One of the attributes about the Gee Bee R-2 is that, when the aircraft is in a three-point attitude on the ground, the rudder has next to no authority, with the rest of the airframe blocking most of the propwash. In the three-point attitude, the pilot also has extremely limited forward visibility. As a result of these issues, Delmar Benjamin would advance the throttle to takeoff power very early and get the tail up in the air as soon as he could on the takeoff roll. I've been doing the same process with the Carenado model, and it works very well! There's actually less tendency for the aircraft to swing to either side on takeoff as well.

    Delmar mentioned after the first test flight that the R-2 stalls at around 100 mph (and more specifically stated years later that it stalls at 95 mph). Testing the Carenado model in the sim, the aircraft stalls just at around those same numbers, 95-100 mph. On takeoff, I've been waiting till the aircraft reaches 120-125 mph before letting the aircraft fly off the runway (which I believe may be correct, or a bit too slow - Delmar would say that the faster you are with the R-2, the better).

    When it came to landing, Delmar would fly the R-2 at 140-145 mph on final, and touchdown at 120 mph. When doing so, he would be side-slipping over the threshold as he was nearing the runway, as the nose would be too high to see over at those speeds. Then, just over the threshold, he would straighten out with the runway, at around which time the tail would start to lower still (increased angle of attack at that lower speed), at which point only the sides of the runway could be seen. Once the tires contacted with the runway, he would push the stick forward to raise the tail up and keep it up down the whole distance of the landing roll, so as to be able to both maintain rudder control and be able to have better visibility straight ahead. He would always then soon be on the brakes, with the tail up, until it was slowed down to taxi speed, before he would gently lower the tail to the runway. Delmar described landing the R-2 like "riding a cannonball".

    Flown just as Delmar described, I've been landing the Carenado R-2, consistently, in the exact same manner, and it seems to behave/handle very closely in this regard as well.

    Where I find the flight dynamics of the Carenado R-2 to be not up to snuff is in the flight control characteristics/overall feel of the aircraft (but which is true of every R-1/R-2 I've ever flown in FS). Delmar described the control surfaces of the R-2 as incredibly sensitive. So much so, he said the R-2 was four-times more sensitive in pitch/roll/yaw as a Pitts Special, as well as being divergent and twitchy (all characteristics that Delmar loved about it). Delmar described it as being "happy" in feel, with the feeling of the ailerons making him just want to roll it (which he did on the very first test flight). Jimmy Doolittle described the handling characteristics of the R-1 as being like balancing a pencil on the tip of your finger. The flight model of the Carenado R-2 is simply just far too stable. It is however still quite maneuverable, and I have been enjoying doing rolls and Cuban 8s. It will also be really great if when the MSFS flight model is improved enough so as to allow knife-edge flying, since the real R-2 (and Model Z), flying at 200 mph or more, can hold knife edge flight indefinitely.

    These are the Pratt & Whitney R-985 "Wasp Jr." typical power settings - take-off: 36.5-in MP / 2300 RPM - climb: 30.5/29-in MP / 2100/2000 RPM - standard cruise: 26.5/24-in MP / 2000/1950/1800 RPM. I have been using just 30-in MP on takeoff, and bringing the prop back to 2000 RPM on the climb. For cruise I've been using 24-in MP/1800 RPM.

    So that is mostly my take on the Carenado R-2 thus-far! I have taken up the Model Z a few times as well, but I will have to fly it some more before I add a post to this thread about that one.

    Here is a little bit of a detailed look at the virtual R-2, inside and out.











    Last edited by Bomber_12th; April 30th, 2022 at 15:32.

  2. #2

  3. #3
    Maintaining 140-145 mph on final, flying a curved approach, the throttle starts to be pulled back as the aircraft nears the runway. While approaching the runway, a side-slip is required in order to maintain visual of the runway as the nose now blocks forward visibility as the angle of attack increases. Touchdown is made at 120 mph and forward pressure on the stick is used to raise the tail and keep it up down the length of the landing rollout. Ample braking is used to get the aircraft slowed down within a reasonable amount of runway before the tail is finally gently lowered as the aircraft approaches taxiing speed.










  4. #4
    SOH-CM-2024 FlameOut's Avatar
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    Thanks for your input, Bomber_12th.

    I purchased it yesterday and have only 2 1/2 hrs. flight time with her.

    I was going to ask if it had a tailwheel lock. I assume it only has that gray rudder trim wheel down low in front of the pilot's seat in screenshot # 05 above. I've had a Dickens of a time trying to get airborne. I've always ended up hitting the "Y" key to enter slew mode and the "F4" to get up to about 3000 feet, hitting "Y" again to get out of slew mode. I then would trim her out and set MP, RPM etc.

    I'll give it a shot at "...
    Delmar Benjamin would advance the throttle to takeoff power very early and get the tail up in the air as soon as he could on the takeoff roll..." over this weekend.

  5. #5
    both models really are beautifully made inside and out

    I was always a fan of the Granville brother's aircrafts too and I am also quite happy to have both the Z and the R1 in MSFS.
    I'm sure that as the global flight modeling is improved, the flying experience in these planes will get better

    Might have to pick up the Dumas kit of the R1 at some point
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  6. #6
    Boy 'o boy !

    Taxi, take-off, and landings could use an external GoPro camera here, lol !
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  7. #7
    I had the pleasure of watching Delmar fly his R-2 routine a number of times, and it was always most impressive - one of those experiences that goes in my file of airplane stuff that I count myself lucky to have seen. This airplane had a reputation as a widow maker; prior to Delmar's replica, Jimmy Doolittle was famously (but not quite correctly) said to be the only pilot who ever flew an R-1/R-2 who didn't also die in it. Delmar arranged for the maiden flight to be thoroughly air-to-air filmed just so that there would be something left as an asset for his estate if the plane's reputation proved to be true and it didn't survive the first landing. However, Delmar found the plane enjoyable to fly, as John says, and claimed that it was quite safe and honest (by the standards of the period) when flown within its envelope. He was not fully successful in dispelling the plane's reputation though, because Delmar is Delmar, and just because he can fly something, doesn't mean a normal person can. Anyway he gave us the gift of being able to see this wild machine in its element, and it will be nice now to experience an effigy of it in MSFS.

    Although Delmar could land fine on runways, this aircraft was really built for true airFIELDs, where you didn't have to be too picky about exactly where you landed. I'm not sure there are any such suitable fields in MSFS, either stock or as add-ons. Here's hoping a scenery designer will do one, and a period Thompson Trophy course layout scenery wouldn't go unappreciated either!

    August

  8. #8
    Here are a few more screenshots I had taken of the R-2 over the past few days.

    In this cockpit shot, you can really see how much detail went into modeling the cockpit, with all of the wood construction, wiring and fresh air ducting present even behind the instrument panel (which can't be seen from the normal pilot perspective). Note all of the 3D welds joining the metal tubing, and how there is not the slightest simplification to the way the control stick grip is modeled.












  9. #9
    A great series of screen shots.
    Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by dvj View Post
    A great series of screen shots.
    Confirmed! Id like to add too that they did very nice 3D model of pilot, maybe not 100% from era (check headphones) but he looks very good. Does he have any animation?

    btw.
    Now, when I remember the new Dornier Do J Wal from Asobo with the pilot in the baseball cap, I will say "shame" to Asobo.
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  11. #11
    I saw Delmar fly the R-2 at Oshkosh and it was a hell of a show. I was going to look up some vids of him flying it to see how he does it, but John saved me the trouble by posting the numbers and technique. I'll try that out. Also, now that I know where the prop control is, it should be a lot better for me now. With regard to these killing pilots, I know in the one case the pilot had another fuel tank added which moved the cg back making it that much more unstable. I'm not surprised he was killed flying it as a result.

  12. #12
    SOH-CM-2024 FlameOut's Avatar
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    " .... regard to these killing pilots... "

    I did manage to get off the ground this morning by going " .... throttle up....", it was not
    pretty!

    She is an Ensign Eliminator and a widow maker rolled into one for sure. I'm going back in for another try at it.

  13. #13
    I really like that the pilot model in both the Gee Bee Z and R-2 is depicted the way he his, with leather flight helmet and modern headset. I don't mind the modern headset, as we're flying in the modern world in this sim, and the aircraft themselves are modern recreations. The pilot's head moves around (as seen in my screenshots), though I haven't kept any eye on his limbs as to whether they move or not (I really don't care in that regard, and suspect they don't).

    As I mentioned earlier, the Carenado Gee Bee R-2 is modeled inside and out directly to match the definitive replica built by Delmar Benjamin and Steve Wolf (first flight in December 1991). The Carenado Gee Bee Model Z it would appear has been modeled externally to match the replica built by Kevin Kimball and Jeff Eicher (first flight in June 1996), and has some internal details that match the Bill Turner replica (first flight in 1978). Both aircraft feature modern, though now slightly vintage, avionics, as per reality. Delmar's Gee Bee R-2 was only ever flown by him (with well over 700 hrs on it), where as the Kimball/Eicher Gee Bee Z was flown by Delmar (totaling 15 flights, as I recall) and was later flown by Kermit Weeks (3 times, as I recall). Today, both aircraft are displayed static at Fantasy of Flight.

    (The Bill Turner replica Gee Bee Model Z, as seen in the movie The Rocketeer, and is displayed today at The Museum of Flight, wasn't built to be a faithful reproduction, and has both a longer fuselage and longer wings so as to make its flying characteristics less of a challenge.)
    Last edited by Bomber_12th; May 1st, 2022 at 13:22.

  14. #14
    If you have the time, there is some wonderful viewing here, with a lot of great visual and auditory information to glean:

    Delmar Benjamin/Steve Wolf Gee Bee R-2 First Test Flight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f9UOgFmZIo
    Delmar flies the Gee Bee R-2 for Pete Miller (original designer): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8c88gFeEek
    Delmar with the R-2 at Oshkosh in 1992: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJuAaHsexEI
    Delmar and the R-2 at Moffet Field in 1999: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s79LcCCszRQ
    Delmar and the R-2 at La Ferte Alais, France: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWL_DSurFRU
    Delmar and the R-2 at Mannheim, Germany: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3HjJii9SGo
    Delmar and the R-2 in Germany (showing when the left wheel spat was damaged): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nStjpGgc28

    Delmar describing the differences between flying the Gee Bee R-2 and the Gee Bee Model Z: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3mvN21OEbc

    First test flight of the Kimball/Eicher Gee Bee Z, flown by Delmar Benjamin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKeJLCQhtX8
    Gee Bee Z "touch and go" flown by Delmar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeOpVDU8ePA
    Runway view of a Gee Bee Z takeoff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQMFgUCagv4
    Kermit Weeks flying the aircraft at Fantasy of Flight, shortly after having acquired it in 1998: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaCT_8sK-aM


    I also thought it worth mentioning that, while we will likely never see the Delmar Benjamin/Steve Wolf R-2 fly again, there are a couple others that are being built to fly, with the most advanced that I'm aware of being built in Arizona by Mac Transtrum. Delmar Benjamin has been helping in the build as well, and it is as accurate to the original as you can get. As of the end of last year, in addition to the fuselage, all of the fabric covering of the wings and tail had been completed as well. Like Delmar's, it will also be finished as the R-2, fitted with the R-985 engine. Like Delmar, Mac headed into the project with a lot of time flying Pitts.





    A much earlier photo of the project, from several years ago:


  15. #15
    BTW, when Delmar Benjamin/Steve Wolf built theirs, which the Carenado model depicts, they did the pinstriping in black, as it was thought to have been at the time, based simply on B&W photos. Later, some time after the aircraft had been completed/flying, they were presented at an airshow with a piece of fabric from the original R-2, which showed that the pinstriping was actually blue. I would imagine that replicas being built now, such as Mac Transtrums, will likely now have that detail correct on theirs.

  16. #16
    IRL its really small aircraft! Wow!
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by YoYo View Post
    Confirmed! Id like to add too that they did very nice 3D model of pilot, maybe not 100% from era (check headphones) but he looks very good. Does he have any animation?btw.Now, when I remember the new Dornier Do J Wal from Asobo with the pilot in the baseball cap, I will say "shame" to Asobo.
    Yes, the pilot is animated. Carenado also has created a wonderful prop disk animation too. Which is typical of their work. I keep waiting for their Beach 18.
    Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken.

  18. #18
    Nice pics and commentary John!
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by dvj View Post
    I keep waiting for their Beach 18.
    I'm also waiting on the beach for the Beech 18
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  20. #20
    John,

    In your reading on the Gee Bees, was there mention as to whether that responsiveness/maneuverability was still there at high speeds? Much of what I've read about planes of that era talked about how it was much more difficult to maneuver at top speeds. I know that's true of unboosted 1940s fighters (which is what I've read the most about) and saw similar comments about the Supermarine racers.

    Curious if this is the case with the Gee Bee as well. I assume Benjamin aerobatic displays weren't being done at the top end of the speed curve.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by heywooood View Post
    I'm also waiting on the beach for the Beech 18
    Me too. I wish they would do the G18S model instead of the usual version.

    Don BP

  22. #22

  23. #23
    Are we able to import this into the Reno races add-on?

    LouP

  24. #24
    SOH-CM-2024 FlameOut's Avatar
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    Ops, in my post #4 above, I incorrectly called the gray wheel the rudder trim wheel ... it is the elevator pitch trim wheel!

    I had to turn on the Tool tips in General Options/Accessibility to find out why my efforts at controlling the takeoff rudder trim was not working.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The above screenshot showing 0.4 was from this morning's flight at 4200 ft., MP ~ 27, RPM ~ 1800, 1/2 tank of gas .... with no more or less than 50 ft of climb or descent on the VSI. Now of course the trim will be a lot different on the takeoff roll.

    I found a few other things while I had this turned on, 1., the parking brake is hiding down behind the right foot kick plate, I thought it was just another one of those many pipes / tubes. I had been using the keyboard command to unlock the parking brake. 2., I had assumed that the comm. radios and the transponders were not modelled, but they do indeed work. You have to hold down the left mouse click button and use the center roll wheel function and the right click and release button all at the same time (never has my mouse had to have 3 fingers at the same time, a complicated affair).

    That's why I come here ... to learn!

  25. #25
    I still have yet to spend all that much time flying the new Gee Bee Model Z in MSFS, but I noticed that the handling seems to be quite the same or identical to that of the Carenado Gee Bee R-2, but just that it accurately stalls about 20 mph slower than the R-2. The feel of these flight models is more in-line with how the Gee Bee Model Z flies, compared to the Gee Bee R-2 (which, according to Delmar, flies like no other aircraft). Where as Delmar described the Gee Bee R-2 as having extremely sensitive control behavior in pitch/roll/yaw, being four times more sensitive than a Pitts Special, the Gee Bee Model Z on the other hand, which is a completely different and earlier design, and with the center of gravity positioned farther forward, the in-flight control behavior is much more stiff, and requires as much as 50% more control force in pitch/roll than the Gee Bee R-2.

    Some descriptions from Delmar Benjamin on flying the Gee Bee R-2 in an article from 1998 (https://www.avweb.com/air-shows-even...d-for-speed/):

    "First I bring the power up and I use all of it, it really goes nice and straight. You got the stick forward and you’re waiting for the tail to come up, because you can’t see anything until the tail comes up. And you get the tail up and then you can see down the runway, you need to hold it on until 120 (mph), because it’s got aileron reversal. If you dial in an angle of attack around 100 it would fly off, but the ailerons would be reversed at that speed, so if you move the ailerons you would snap in."

    “You fly with kid gloves…it’s a very light touch. It doesn’t have any stick pressure and sometimes it uses negative pressure. But once I got accustomed to that, I liked the way it flies. The rudder is 13 inches deep and 6 feet tall,very large when you look at it…and it’ll beat you to death. You hit the rudder and your head hits and canopy. See, the canopy’s pretty scarred up there, I always seem to hit my headset on the left side for some reason.”

    “It’s so pitch sensitive that you could put one finger on top of the stick and you could break the wings off the airplane, just by pulling the stick back with one finger. That’s how sensitive it is. Like yesterday, I pulled for the barrel roll, and pulled about 10 g’s just because that thing is so pitch sensitive.”

    “On landing, you need to keep speed up so you don’t get into aileron reversal, and you need to see the runway,so usually when I’m downwind, when I cross the numbers I start a turn and come right down to the runway and level out and touchdown and try to touch down easy because the shock absorbers on this thing don’t work well, and it’ll tear the gear off the airplane.Then your elevators quit working at about 80 mph, so the tail will come down on its own at about 80-100 mph and that is too fast to be going down the runway and you can’t see anything in front of you. And there’s so many curved surfaces you can’t lookout one side and tell if you’re straight, so you try to put your head back against the headrest and you try to keep the same amount of runway on both sides–you can only see a little pie shape of runway behind the wings and you try to keep the same amount.” (He doesn't explain it here, but you can tell in the videos and it was explained in his aerobatic performances that he always made ample use of the toe brakes on landing, which kept the tail up and the airplane slowing down faster, until he would come nearly to a stop on the runway so that he was in complete control of the aircraft before taxiing off the runway.)

    The effect of the ailerons on the Gee Bee R-2 reverses when the aircraft gets down to 110 mph (which is still about 15 mph above its stall speed). On Delmar's third test flight in the aircraft, not yet aware of that phenomena, he tried a slower, three-point attitude landing, and the ailerons reversed at 110 mph and it snap rolled just above the ground, causing the right aileron to strike the ground, but Delmar was otherwise able to recover it (the scuff marks/minor damage to the right aileron was never repaired, so as to serve as a reminder to how close he had come in that instance). After that, every landing was made with a minimum 120 mph airspeed at touchdown.

    Delmar's aerobatic routine of course would have the aircraft flying at quite a good clip, somewhere in the 200s (mph). The fastest Delmar ever flew the R-2 was at Reno in 1992, where it is said that he approached nearly 300 mph on the airspeed indicator.

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