DC Designs PT-17 Stearman is Out

[heywooood]

The Stearman isn't a 'study level' airplane - it is a simple looking biplane. But it has notable characteristics. Just like any airplane it has certain things about it that MAKE it a Stearman.
The PT-17 has one big specific characteristic - that big round thing on the front of it. It is supposed to be of a certain type, manufactured to a certain spec and it looks a certain way.
It was made by Continental and every one of those engines looked like the Continental R670-5 radial engine.

I have purchased this model. I like this model. I take nothing away from Dean or anyone at DC - but this model has some flaws and the biggest one is right out front and center.
I could list a dozen more but Dean has said many of those would be addressed, including the motor. The elevators, the struts and cabanes, the windscreens (already corrected on his end), the lower wing hand holds, and now I just noticed the forward bracing wires on the stabilizer do not line up- top to bottom


All of these things are little things - that's why I don't see why they wouldn't be fixed if mentioned. So I mentioned them - politely and was responded to by Dean in kind on the other forum.
Then I see here on this board that he considers much of this 'wanting the moon on a stick' instead of helpful feedback - and you all wanting to ban the guy who sees the the emperor ain't got no pants..

c'mon man
We can talk about a proper Stearman - cant we? This is a discussion board right?

[DennyA]

Hey guys, we're all friends here. Let's step back and look at the big picture.

* This is a $15 airplane. I love that it's priced far more reasonably than the $40-60 add-ons so prevalent in flight sims. But it's less than the cost of taking your kid to McDonald's.

* That said, we're enthusiasts, and a lot of the enjoyment comes from planes being convincing in the sim. If you've flown real planes, you know that the sim experience, no matter whether you're playing on a 19-inch monitor or in VR with a buttkicker and 6DOF rig, is still a fraction of the reality of real flying, so you're never going to get full realism. What you get is a convincing experience that lets you get lost in the fantasy. And really noticeable issues, like props spinning the wrong way or a control surface that's misshapen, can take a hardcore sim fan out of the experience. So it's natural to want those things to be fixed to help the immersion.

* That said, DC Designs has repeated stated that it's going to fix those things. The canopy glass, the shape issues, the prop, etc. are all going to be addressed in updates, and if you have other DC Designs planes, you know that Dean's promises are good. So, nothing to complain about here.

* If there are other features you want -- survey-sim level details, multiple engine variants, etc. -- that aren't here, it's not a failing that they weren't included. It's just that this isn't a survey sim product. It's a $15 representation of a single Stearman model. If Dean has created a product aimed at an audience that's not you, that's not a crime, that's not a bad thing. It may be disappointing, but it's just reality.

* Nobody is saying that there's not an audience for a package with multiple engine variants and a higher level of detail. But there IS likely a bigger audience for a $15 single plane than a $60 survey package. That's not a slight on hardcore aviation fans or anything to do with a coming Xbox version. That's reality. There's a wider market for less expensive add-ons and more accessible add-ons. If every plane had Accusim-level system detail and cost $60-$90, this hobby would die.

* The accusations of MSFS or its add-ons being dumbed down for an Xbox audience are just ridiculous. MSFS has issues because it's new, it's ambitious, and it's a much younger codebase than the moldy old code that makes P3D still perform like a dog on a $4,000 computer despite 2007-level visuals. Asobo's addressing the gaps over time, and the Xbox version is going to give them more resources for the PC version if it does well. It's also going to expand the market for flight sims, which is a good thing for us. Step back from the conspiracy theories and just look at the realities of expensive sim development. If MSFS has brought in XX% new users who aren't hardcore FSX/P3D/X-Plane fans coming over, that is good for us because it's going to pay for future development and keeping the servers running.

Guys, it's a big market. Dean's Stearman is fun, it's going to get tweaked to address the issues, and if there's a market for a survey-level Stearman, his $15 lighter-weight plane isn't going to kill it.

As to complaints and bringing up issues and whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, may I remind you that Golden Age Simulations was going to bring over their excellent P3D Stearman to MSFS and the variants on P3D may well have addressed the very things you're complaining about, but the hostile, insulting feedback from their first MSFS product had them throw up their arms and go back to FSX/P3D because they didn't want to put all that effort into a product to be met with a barrage of negativity and complaints. So now we've lost GAS and we've lost the Stearman that would have addressed your gripes.

Constructive feedback is great and useful. Negativity and insensitivity has lost us quite a few great developers, commercial and freeware, over the years, from Piglet and Mike Stone in the old days to GAS now. So please consider that along with the big picture when you're interacting online.

[heywooood]

I'm going to respond to this for two reasons
1) I was a beta tester for GAS and worked on the Stearman project as well as the Kinner Sport - what was said about GAS being thieves and the other ugly nature of those comments was abhorrent and NOTHING at all like the feedback I have given Dean. I'm actually quite perturbed that you would equate my comments with those.
2) As I said before there is nothing 'study level' in what I am seeing as 3D modeling issues.

Yes Dean has said he was going to fix them and our conversation was congenial - it was only when I came in here to see what the release reaction was on this forum that I saw him remark about 'asking for the moon'
And to be fair to me - I am not the only one who has noticed these issues. The thing I find most striking though is that this is a flight sim forum where folks are often sticklers for accuracy and fidelity.
The Stearman model 75 is a simple biplane - no more 'study level' than the Ryan STA - yet one is highly accurate while keeping the price about the same as the other..

[DennyA]

Just to clarify, I wasn't accusing anyone here of the level of vitriol some threw at GAS. But there was also just a lot of general whining about textures, etc. in a very negative way on a number of forums and almost no credit for creating a rare, cool plane with some innovative features and a superb flight model. It was a comment about tonality vs constructive commentary.

Anyway, Dean's fixing it, he made one comment that might have rubbed some the wrong way but that doesn't affect the Stearman's shape or flight model so maybe it can be disagreed with and moved on from... Not sure why we're still discussing this.

[DC1973]

John, Denny and others have hit the nail on the head here - they and others understand why I do what I do and how I do it. If I were building just for me, I'd want every rivet to have the right stamp and date marking on it. But this is about building aircraft to make a living, not massaging my ego, and 70% of the sim market want fun / entertainment level aircraft that are representative of their type and simply don't need detail to the nth degree. In these tough economic times, prices need to be reachable by all. The Stearman represents that balance between price, detail, development time and target market. Stearman purists won't like it, but it doesn't matter - they just don't represent a large enough share of the market to matter. Considering the non-functional junk that some devs are putting out in cash-grabs for $20+, I'd have thought one might look at a $15 aircraft like the Stearman, with proper support and a communicative dev, in a different light, but sadly it seems not. It's the "I want what I want, and if you don't deliver it then it's garbage no matter what others might want" attitude that I don't like. It's not that folks are being offensive in any way, just that some don't want to understand that it's not designed for them.

The Stearman is right for it's market, and for every customer unhappy about a cable in the wrong place, there are 50 who are happily flying about enjoying the aircraft for what it is. They're my market, the silent majority who aren't on forums like this, who don't "engage" with the community of do surveys - they just enjoy flight simming in their favourite aircraft.

Having said all of that, I do listen to as many as I can - pretty much everything mentioned here is to be fixed in the first update as it's all really quite easy to do. It often takes a product launch to get a feel for what the community wants beyond the perceived target market. I did this with the F-15s, and it worked well.

[heywooood]

Then don’t call it a Stearman PT-17 if you don’t want to put in the effort.
call it a 15$ biplane for people who don’t care.
Seriously - why ARE we still talking about this ?

[YoYo]

* This is a $15 airplane. I love that it's priced far more reasonably than the $40-60 add-ons so prevalent in flight sims. But it's less than the cost of taking your kid to McDonald's....

If you look at it, this is the market for MSFS models, the models are much cheaper than was for P3D and this is nothing new and just an exception. From our (users) point of view it is very good, for develepers I think also - ok the price is lowest but the sales are higher (+ new users for the future). The average "XBOX user" won't pay $ 30 for DLC. On the other hand, these prices are often offered by completely new companies and people who are just starting to make models in MSFS (in a COVID situation where many people have lost their jobs or have financial problems, that's ok too). The competition here will simply be much bigger than it was, so from our, user's side its good too. Caudron 430 is an good example of this, 10Eu (and it was on sale at beginnig 8.5Eu) and the quality of 3D shape is impressive also:



As for the rest - it's nothing new. The group of flight simulator lovers is the most complaining group on the market especially since it concerns the history of aviation and well-documented machines, which everyone has in their minds since childhood. You have to be prepared for this and simply take into account the opinions of the community, which after all has nothing wrong in mind, but only points to oversight. This is called constructive criticism if it is not exaggerated and if it's well documented. Have a good day!

[DC1973]

@heywood Because it is a PT-17 Stearman, no matter how much you dislike it. This isn't about the quality of the airplane now - it's about a failure to understand that what you want isn't the only deal on the table, and is in fact the smallest deal available from a developer's perspective - common problem in flight sim. I'm going to move from this now, as I have improvements to make with no effort required apparently.

[erican2]

It's a wonder we have any developers left with the attitude of some of the people on here, I think Deans model of one of aviation's most iconic aircraft Concorde was a extremely brave and daunting task.
I don't own it, not because it's a bad model but I already have the Fslabs version and don't need another one in my collection. I also have the PSS Concorde and Koch media Concorde as well. I might get Deans Concorde to complete my collection but for the time being I have other priorities.

[keithb77]

Hopefully something easy to fix (whilst removing the armoured glass?) - if flown in heavy cloud and rain (real weather, Scotland, this morning ) there is a strange flickering reflection of the canopy framing present in the front and RH panes of cockpit glass of the front cockpit, when viewed from the rear seat.

Anyone know the purpose of the large 'ammo-box' labelled Database on the floor of the rear cockpit?
Sorry if this is nit-picking, but with the term database being invented in the 60's maybe it could be relabelled?

[DC1973]

Hopefully something easy to fix (whilst removing the armoured glass?) - if flown in heavy cloud and rain (real weather, Scotland, this morning ) there is a strange flickering reflection of the canopy framing present in the front and RH panes of cockpit glass of the front cockpit, when viewed from the rear seat.

Anyone know the purpose of the large 'ammo-box' labelled Database on the floor of the rear cockpit?
Sorry if this is nit-picking, but with the term database being invented in the 60's maybe it could be relabelled?

The rain issue is already fixed - the glass wasn't scaled correctly in the LOD01 cockpit model, so an individual drop of rain caused a big refraction in the glass.

The Database marking is from a real Stearman from WW2 - can't tell if the label was placed there in more modern times or not to be honest. Will find out.

ETA: Hah! It should be Data Case - will change it

[Bomber_12th]

The 'data case' was one of those items installed in every WWII-era American aircraft, somewhere. Some were wood and some were metal. If not located in the cockpit, it would be situated elsewhere in the fuselage that could be accessed. On some Stearmans, if it is missing from the cockpit, it is because it is attached to the inside of the baggage compartment door instead.

On the incredibly authentic Wings of North Air Museum's N2S-1 Stearman (BuNo. 3347, N50061), they have the modern radios hidden inside the data case so that, when it is closed up when on display, you would never be able to tell that anything is different from the way it was during WWII (save for the temporary portable GPS mount too). This is one of five Stearmans known to survive today that were flown by US President George Bush Sr., during his Navy primary flight training at NAS Minneapolis, in January/February 1943. Even the triangle of black tape over the fuel pressure reading on the engine gauge is accurate to factory/original wartime. When this one was originally restored, completed several years ago, it didn't have an electric starter or radios at all, as it was done exactly as it would have been in 1942/43. Since that time, they have added the radios and an electric starter for ease of operation (when I took these photos, it was in the process of having those items added).

[Stearman]

OK, just installed and took it for a quick ride around Orcas Island.
Enjoyed every minute of it and, even if still requiring full attention, I managed to land it on the first try (something I never got to do with the Waco).
Thanks Dean, MSFS was incomplete without a Stearman.
Now, for when the Concorde?

[jmig]

I have a question for you knowledgeable types. The red handle below the throttle that says "Controls Lock" it the Tips, what does it do? I moved it and the controls didn't seem different. I could still move them.

[DC1973]

I have a question for you knowledgeable types. The red handle below the throttle that says "Controls Lock" it the Tips, what does it do? I moved it and the controls didn't seem different. I could still move them.

It's there for future updates as the Stearman had a control lock: there is no control lock function at this time in MSFS, but I wanted it ready and animated with its own sound so that when the time comes, its function can be fulfilled

[DC1973]

OK, just installed and took it for a quick ride around Orcas Island.
Enjoyed every minute of it and, even if still requiring full attention, I managed to land it on the first try (something I never got to do with the Waco).
Thanks Dean, MSFS was incomplete without a Stearman.
Now, for when the Concorde?

Glad you're enjoying it!

An update will be released Friday for the cosmetic issues mentioned here and elsewhere, I'm almost finished with the work.

Concorde work begins in late July, after the launch of my F-14A / B Tomcat package.

[Priller]

Glad you're enjoying it!

An update will be released Friday for the cosmetic issues mentioned here and elsewhere, I'm almost finished with the work.

Concorde work begins in late July, after the launch of my F-14A / B Tomcat package.

Did you just say "Tomcat"??

Priller

[warchild]

Meowwwww!!

[DC1973]

Several updates made to the model folks, in brief:

Windscreen frames thinned
Engine crank-case re-shaped
Wing support beams now aerofoil-shaped
Prop spin direction corrected
Elevator shape corrected
Exhaust interiors now matt black
Rain distortion bug on windscreen glass fixed

More will follow, but these will be available to users by Friday from Just Flight

[Bomber_12th]

Thank you, Dean!

[heywooood]

Yes thank you Dean, the model with those few corrections looks much better now. I bought it after our friendly exchanges on the other site yesterday after your apparent willingness to make the needed changes, or at least consider them.
I don’t know why my suggestions created all the resentment they did, but it doesn’t matter today.
All things considered, slings, arrows, asbestos blankets aside, we will have a more accurate PT-17 in MSFS to fly. I think we can all appreciate that.

[dvj]

If you look at it, this is the market for MSFS models, the models are much cheaper than was for P3D and this is nothing new and just an exception. From our (users) point of view it is very good, for develepers I think also - ok the price is lowest but the sales are higher (+ new users for the future). The average "XBOX user" won't pay $ 30 for DLC. On the other hand, these prices are often offered by completely new companies and people who are just starting to make models in MSFS (in a COVID situation where many people have lost their jobs or have financial problems, that's ok too). The competition here will simply be much bigger than it was, so from our, user's side its good too. Caudron 430 is an good example of this, 10Eu (and it was on sale at beginnig 8.5Eu) and the quality of 3D shape is impressive also:



As for the rest - it's nothing new. The group of flight simulator lovers is the most complaining group on the market especially since it concerns the history of aviation and well-documented machines, which everyone has in their minds since childhood. You have to be prepared for this and simply take into account the opinions of the community, which after all has nothing wrong in mind, but only points to oversight. This is called constructive criticism if it is not exaggerated and if it's well documented. Have a good day!

Amen! That Caudron 430 is a quite impressve piece of work.

[YoYo]

Great info about incoming patch. Thank You!

[Boss86001]

Is the Stearman ever going to be sold at the Marketplace or only at Justflight?

[keithb77]

Brilliant, thanks
Typically I'm away friday and all weekend... is that a new livery BTW?

I've been investigating tail wheel locks ... the DC Stearman does have a lock, which defaults to unlocked allowing the plane to turn whilst taxying.
I'm pretty sure it should be engaged for take-off to help hold the plane straight, which can be achieved by mapping (eg) a joystick button.
I was hoping it would stop the leftward-lunge at 40 MPH and it does seem to, but then on further testing I don't always get the lunge even with it unlocked, so not yet proven.

The GAS Stearman has a lever on the right cockpit wall for the tailwheel lock (incidentally the GAS Stearman demo imports nicely into MSFS).
Some aircraft you hold the stick right back to engage the lock.
I guess it would be too much to ask for the lever to be added and the tailwheel animated...no problems I'm very happy with it as it is.

There is a very nice guide to flying the Stearman at https://captainbillywalker.com/stear...ng-guide-2019/
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The Caudron is also very nice, but I think it is under-scale, especially in VR it feels like a model - I don't mean the short wings and cramped cockpit, it's all the dials and controls are tiny.
Anybody have an opinion on that?
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And on the subject of low MSFS prices ... is anybody expecting the PMDG DC-6 for $30...