CFS3
I have had pms
and read posts and ya do not need us
so be it
come tomorrow
after i have slept
we will see
not only off 3 but 1 &2
H
I have had pms
and read posts and ya do not need us
so be it
come tomorrow
after i have slept
we will see
not only off 3 but 1 &2
H
What? Please explain???
I think there is no question that we need you...
And no...
The primary reason behind the pending closure of the OFF forums here at SOH is not the fact that OFF phase 3 is a commercial add-on. That is a factor, but not the big one.
To those of you who mave made the comparision...
You cannot correctly compare OFF3 to CFS3, IL2, FS2004, or any other stand-alone game from a major manufacturer. It would be considered a major add-on. Even if it does create a stand-alone version of the game, it is still an expansion of CFS3 and thus an "add-on".
SOH doesn't provide separate forums and staff-power free-of-charge for other commercial vendors such as Alphasim, Flight1, Aeroplane Heaven, etc either.
We do welcome commercial vendors to visit and participate in the forums, but as for them having their own dedicated forum for their products...that won't happen without charge. That is a part of the cost of running a commercial venture even if it is a rather low-income "hobby" business. Any business owner can tell you that.
Getting back to the big reason...
The OFF forums alone are the single biggest cost of volunteer staff/admin manpower here at SOH.
Now...this is not me saying that the whole bunch of you guys are bad! There are a bunch of good members here!
But, due to a select few constant trouble-makers, the OFF forum is always in constant need of a staffer or admin on-duty 24/7 and has been the cause of several staff members giving up over the frustration.
(Taking off my admin hat for a moment...)
As for me personally, I wish Winder and the rest of the OBD crew the best of luck with OFF3. I haven't flown "CFS3-anything" for several years now, but it looks like it has really evolved into a great enhancement for the sim, and I have no doubt that it is worth purchasing if you're into the WWI-scene.
Like many other folks who started out here at SOH/CFC, Netwings/CFS2Online, and the other sites...congratulations to Winder and the rest of the OBD bunch on making the move up to commercial status. (Yes, I know that the payware route has been in the works for a while now)
Best of luck and here's hoping that OFF3 lives up to the OBD crew's expectations!
This is understandable. I have only been here since phase 3 and have only seen a few locked threads. Compared to stuff I have read on the TF2 forums, for example, I thought that these were more embarassing for the people that wrote them than they were lockable, but it sounds like it may be a case of mission creep where the SOH people are forced to do more than they bargained for. Hopefully, everyone can remain on good terms as the flight sim community is small enough as it is!Originally Posted by Moparmike
RR
Mopar-
>> But, due to a select few constant trouble-makers, the OFF forum is always in constant need of a staffer or admin on-duty 24/7 and has been the cause of several staff members giving up over the frustration.<<
I try not to get involved in forum administration or forum "politics". And I must admit that I have found humorous and entertaining, reading through the occassional "heated debate threads" that can pop up from time to time.
But I'm really surprised at the above description of the OFF forum. I haven't ever seen that aspect and it seems somewhat overreaching IMO. Makes it sound like OFF is a malcontent forum, which again IMO, it definately is not.
Just my 2 cents.
Regards,
Royce
This isn't a decision by just a couple of staff members. This has been discussed by the majority of the staff and is the consensus that we've reached.
We wish the best to the OFF crew in the future.
Willy
It has been asked, so here's a few stats...
--In the last month, there have been 10 threads closed in the OFF3 forum alone out of a total of 760. That's 760 threads that needed to be checked by the staff for the comments of a certain few troublemakers and actions taken as needed. 10 doesn't sound like many, but when you consider that these posts can pop up in any thread that means we gotta keep an eye on all of em.
--Off-topic threads...same thing. We've got other forums on the board for off-topic subjects.
--Off-color threads...Some of these threads/posts get a little rank too and we've got young members here that don't need to be seeing stuff like that on the forum. Sure, they can probably find it lots of other places but that's besides the point, we don't need to see it here.
--I can't dig up any solid stats on the exact number of posts that have needed to be edited by staff/admin.
--Also in the past month, I have written 25 PMs to members concerning them causing trouble just in the OFF3 forum. That's not including any staff action action the other moderators or admins have done...just counting my own here. That's about one per day...sitting down and taking the time to consider what needs to be done with the threads/posts/members involved.
Yes, it is time-intensive! Not to mention that I also took about 40 minutes out of my time to go dig up these numbers and post em up for the inquiring minds.
See the sticky thread in here reminding folks of the Terms of Use? That had to be posted in plain view for a reason.
Those pesky few...this isn't the only forum that has em either, but it is a problem much more frequently than it should be.
As for the money end of things...
Ickie owns the place, I just work here. My other post above is my own opinion.
Well, I am sad that it has had to come to this. I would venture that over 98% of the people who post on this forum are straight-up dudes and that most of the troublemakers have been trolls with one or two posts who came into the forum to trash OFF or make some other kind of trouble. True, there are a few long-time members who are a little "rough around the edges," but I have yet to see anyone who was being intentionally malicious to another member. Also, I am a bit confused about the "off-color" remark. Maybe I have become a dirty old man, but I can't recall anything that immediately springs to mind that I would consider off-color, with the exception of the thread about this :bs: silly little graphic. (BTW, do you know that the forum already HAS a pornographic graphic! Just take a peak at the banana animations and look for the one titled "Banane16" and you will see what I mean).
OTOH, this IS Icky's forum and he has the fight to set the rules and we have to abide by them. I have no hard feelings towards Icky and have nothing but respect for his work on Red Baron with Sierra-Dynamix and his support of that community. I wish it could have been different, but perhaps this move is the best one for both SOH and OBD.
<S!> Farewell all, and see you on the other side!
I am/was new to OFF 3 (and SOH) as of this past January. After a few visits and the quality of help and advice I received with my initial posts I gladly responded to the banner in the OFF 3 forum soliciting web site maintenance funding. Two months later a SOH administrator with his nose obviously way out of joint posts that the OFF 3 site is going to be shut down. This results in alarmed questions (me included) asking if this is actually going to happen, why, etc. Then some people lose their cool and the next thing the fur starts flying and it rapidly became a one-upsmanship game culminating in the SOH administrators collectively supporting the decision after first over-ruling the initial SOH administrator decision/post to shut down the OFF 3 forum. Now it's deteriorated to the point of shutting down all of the OFF forums.
Ok, it's your store and you can dictate who comes in and who won't. But when I ask for a refund in a PM of my recent $20 donation (given I've only received 2 months of benefit) what I got in reply was :
"You made a donation to the
SOH which has been hosting the Off
forums there is a seperate off donation
for which we have been showing medals and that i guess is what you where donating for
but we have had enough of the
bad manners and lack of respect
from the forum
i have been in contact with Mark
and it seems that the off team does not need us
so bye bye
sorry but thats the way it is"
H
To be told in essence "tough, we're keeping your $20" with a curt "so bye by sorry thats the way it is".... well, suffice to say my reply was in somewhat like manner. As I said, I was new to SOH as well OFF 3 - in fact I'd never heard of SOH - but I sure won't forget it now...
I am thinking I may have to take back my previous post. I admit I know nothing of the internal politics at this site, but it seems to me the people who have most recently been rude and childish have been the moderators of this forum. Sheesh!You made a donation to the
SOH which has been hosting the Off
forums there is a seperate off donation
for which we have been showing medals and that i guess is what you where donating for
but we have had enough of the
bad manners and lack of respect
from the forum
i have been in contact with Mark
and it seems that the off team does not need us
so bye bye
sorry but thats the way it is
Closeing the OFF forums is of cause their choice , but seeing as I made a donation in support of this forum/site and they are closeing it down I can see no reason why I should not initiate a chargeback on my donation , again their choice .
cheers
You've got a point. Will have to check into it since I've only received less than 2 months benefit. Frankly I will be surprised if this thread is still here another 24 hours...along with the entire OFF forums.
Taffy,I am thinking I may have to take back my previous post. I admit I know nothing of the internal politics at this site, but it seems to me the people who have most recently been rude and childish have been the moderators of this forum. Sheesh!
My thoughts exactly.. its almost as if there might be a hint of jealousy that this forum is working so good.. I dont know, it just seems that ive seen worse forums with less members that seem to stay on the air almost indefinitly.. ya know.. I guess like most of the members we are still very confused, and still wondering just what happened...? just my 2 Cents worth... :friday:
Blue781...coming to a jasta near you!
I just want to comment on the following post by the owner of SOH which to me is a very poor example of a good manager, businessman, or leader.
"I have supported Off since its creation, and I feel if it wasn't for SOH it would have never got off the ground.
I just found out Off-3 is now payware, to SOH staff as well. Most all of the staff did not know this either.
We have put up with a lot of stuff daily from the Off people, this is now bothering me that we have to the dirty work and pay too.
The time has come to shut the hangar doors."
Ickie, sounds like a child wanting his free copie of OFF3 now, and since he did not get them he is kicking the OFF3 guys out.
Well, I guess owners can set what ever examples/discisions they choose.
Ickie's got a right to his point of view - he has to pay for this site and it has been a pillar of the Sim community for a long time. Plus, SOH does run a pretty tight ship in terms of keeping things friendly - one reason it's been so popular for so long.
It's a shame this has all blown up like this but as someone who has had to admin a forum in the past (one much less friendly than either SOH of these OFF forums) I know how users might end up thinking one thing while the view from the mod side of the fence can be very different. And I know first hand how one group of users can frequently think they are being resonable and "nice" while the mods are busy getting complaints about abuse. Mods tend to have a different perspective and it doesn't pay to dismiss it because you often aren't seeing and hearing all that they do .
Best if OFF and SOH walk away and carry on their lives in seperate locations. The sim world is too small and too much in need of both groups of enthusiasts to let things like this ruin the fun for everyone.
Well, much as I have enjoyed coming here, and respected the SOH moderators (most of the time) I am of the opinion that a divorce is the best solution too.
I am sure that on a few occasions, the Dev team of OFF would have quite liked the power to close down several destructive threads themselves...With a dedicated OFF forum, whoever moderates will have that position to take that action.
As for SOH.... Good, but no Cigar :ernae:
Here is a PM I sent to Middle about a month ago, clearly offering my duties, again, as I have offered in the past, to help run and administer our OBD forum. Once BHaH became a commercial effort, there was more at stake than just being a 'hang-out' for everyone.
Several times in the past I asked Middle to ask all of you to consider me as a 2nd Moderator, so that SOH staff did not have to take personal responsibility over anything OBD related.Banning?
Hello Middle,
I really hate to mention this word at all, but I think it's time to consider it. This last barrage of crap that XXXX spewed about ... [content omitted to protect the identity of who I am referring to] I am embarrassed about what he wrote, but as a member of the OFF Dev team and OBD Software, I'm simply pissed.
Can we talk this over as to how we can handle this? I propose a warning, then next incidence, is a 6-month ban. Closing the thread doesn't seem to get the point across.
How do you feel? I will back-up whatever the conclusion is, no matter if it has to involve Henry, or whomever. Would you consider deputising me as an assistant Administrator?
It's just that it keeps coming from the same source over and over again.... I don't want to see our customers walk away from this SOH forum pissed at OBD Software and SOH. That's potential donation money in the trash, and a good customer for us now a bad customer.
All the best,
James
'OvS'
We have a ton of very good folks on this forum, and even the ones that are considered bad ones are very helpful more often than not. Now and then things get heated up a little, but then again, show me a forum that doesn't.
In the past I PERSONALLY have posted our rules, and have asked members to sit-out, take a break, calm down... etc.. etc.. and have taken personal responsibility to PM them and ask them to walk away for a few days. Never publically embarrassing them, or making them feel unwanted.
What you guys have collectively done here is kick us, the OFF Community, right in the nutsack for what appears to be no apparent reason. I have moderated and administered my own Hell’s Angles forum and helped on others enough to know that people are people. That will never change. We donated and supported you... this last effort by Middle with the 'Free Beer' post, helped out as much as everyone was willing to go. And shortly after that.. we get this... you're shutting us down first because you suddenly 'found out' that we were commercially selling BHaH... OK... bad reason, that was reversed, now it has something to do with the amount of time it requires, which seems to be another poor reason... next it's just because you're tired of doing the job you volunteered for. Who knows. From our point of view (the OFF Community), it seems like this has been a planned thing and suddenly, after the additional monies were collected, the bomb is dropped.
BTW... no one asked you guys to create a P1&2 forum, separate from a P3 forum. No one asked you guys to have to administer, and moderate as much as you claimed you had to. At one point, someone was even closing threads that he 'felt were not going well'. What the hell does that mean??
No one asked to change any icons, but you did and got pissed at us for using them. What did you expect, we're all a bunch of children. Give us a 'BS' icon and you know we're going to use it. We asked that it be removed because we felt that it had no class, and really wasn't required. We were bashed over it.
So as I stated before, I tried to help out. I offered to help, and no answer was given. I followed the chain-of-command by contacting Middle, who then took my request to you, and nothing was heard since then. He replied, but nothing about adding me in... and this was not the first time I asked. Please don't toss this in my face, or anyone else’s in our Community. We care(ed) about SOH, and enjoy(ed) being here. Enough to toss you money to run the servers and all. Now you'll simply be without us, and good luck filling the void.
I don't know. Right now, you guys don't look to good in the eyes of many members on this forum. Maybe you don't care, but we sure as hell do.
What makes this even more harder to swallow, not even from being an OFF Dev Team member, just simply being an SOH Donator and a 4 year good standing member, is the way it was done. No class. As if there were meetings about this forum, and decisions made amongst some kind of 'higher authority' (please, don't start the conspiracy crap) deeming us worthless. Then we're simply made aware of it by a lame, general audience post on the forum. You think one of you, maybe the top man, would have contacted Winder and let him know. Or at least myself, and or Polovski.
Well... that about sums it up. It's been a lot of fun here... even with the group of yourselves. Why this has to be, I don't know, and neither does anyone else but yourselves. Your reasons do not add-up to the actions that you have taken. I'm not sorry for anything I said in this post, as it's all truth, and from my experiences in the past and present. So I'm not ashamed of myself for saying any of it. All you had to do is talk to one of us.
We do wish you well, even if you are pissed after reading my post, but take into account so are we. But we'll be Gentlemen about this, pack our stuff and leave.
All the best,
OvS
PS... one more thing. Normally, if you have a tenant in an apartment, you are "legally" required, by good-faith, even though you might hate the tenant, to give 1 month's notice. We were given about as much notice as it took for someone to press 'post'. Thanks for that.
OvS,
Cheers all around.... That about said it all.. :amen:
Indeed. An excellent post which represents the way we feel about the situation.
Ah, it's just a big clash of egos is all. Human nature doing what human nature does.
I don't think it helped that a few chaps responded to one chap's impulse with a "screw you then" attitude. As if the assumption was immediately made that Ickie was talking for the entire SoH team. And then the SoH team responded to that as if those few chaps were the entire OFF community.
But that's what humans do. Group-think. Tribal response. A classic example of why humanity keeps on having wars, the old 'us/them' dynamic.
OvS, no offence mate, but I suspect I can guess why they didn't take you up on your offer. I could be entirely wrong, but you do very much come across as somebody who would have too much ego invested in your actions as a moderator. More moderation for the sake of displaying your AUTHORITAH than actually maintaining good order and discipline. People like to have a bit of a ruck on occasion, but so long as it doesn't get to the point of outright naked abuse they should be given their head. I suspect you'd be straight in with the SimHQ-style condescending superiority, followed by suspensions and bannings if anyone dared to question your AUTHORITAH! Forums don't need that kind of posturing, and it's why SimHQ is mostly populated by obsequious eunuchs these days. That sense that there is ALWAYS somebody looking over your shoulder as you type, just waiting for an excuse, ANY excuse, to shout "GOD is here! Fear my AUTHORITAH! WHAT are you saying?! Run it by me first, and pay due homage, for I am the final arbiter of your thoughts and only with my good grace may you express them."
But that's just my opinion, an observation. I don't know you, so it can't be personal and please don't take it as such.
As for the SoH staff, I can understand exactly where they're coming from, on an ego-basis or otherwise. One of them had a little spaz, next minute a number of members were giving the entire outfit the high hat. I'd be pissed off too. At them. Like to think I'd be able to firstly see them in isolation (not representitive of the entire OFF community) and ALSO understand their reasons for going off on a rant. We're humans, not robots. Passions, tempers, reactions, heat of the moment stuff. People say stuff they don't entirely mean, or mean at all. Or they mean every bit of it, just for that moment.
Whatever, what's done is done. My donation (as that seems to be an issue in some quarters), my paltry amount was donated on the basis of what SoH has given, past present and future. Not for the now, not for my specific useage and not just for the OFF forum. I had over 600 members donating to my forum once, some years ago, and I donate to various sites in the same spirit in which they donated to mine. "Thanks for the nice gaff, here's a few dollars, do what the hell you like with it."
Thanks to the SoH staff then, I've had a jolly nice time here. Shame it's ended the way it has but god, it ain't the end of the world and we'll all be yakking again in other forums, here and on other sites, soon as the dust has settled.
what a mess.........as for donations....think of 'em as donations for all the years past when SOH carried and made all the add-on's work....and all the stuff that's still bound to come along, not OFF I guess, but your money's not been wasted by any accounting.......and this ain't the end of the world....just two sites to check out instead of one. Still, it's too bad.....I feel there's a rift in the family that'll never heal. Dang!
Not to Hi-jack threads...
But...
You must have me confused with someone else. That's definately not me.OvS, no offence mate, but I suspect I can guess why they didn't take you up on your offer. I could be entirely wrong, but you do very much come across as somebody who would have too much ego invested in your actions as a moderator. More moderation for the sake of displaying your AUTHORITAH than actually maintaining good order and discipline. People like to have a bit of a ruck on occasion, but so long as it doesn't get to the point of outright naked abuse they should be given their head. I suspect you'd be straight in with the SimHQ-style condescending superiority, followed by suspensions and bannings if anyone dared to question your AUTHORITAH! Forums don't need that kind of posturing, and it's why SimHQ is mostly populated by obsequious eunuchs these days. That sense that there is ALWAYS somebody looking over your shoulder as you type, just waiting for an excuse, ANY excuse, to shout "GOD is here! Fear my AUTHORITAH! WHAT are you saying?! Run it by me first, and pay due homage, for I am the final arbiter of your thoughts and only with my good grace may you express them."
But that's just my opinion, an observation. I don't know you, so it can't be personal and please don't take it as such.
But thanks,
OvS
It's a shame, but that's the way it is.
I have been of the opinion that OFF should have it's own forum, on it's own site for a fair while now, and am looking forward to it getting up and running.
I know I did jump off the deep end with the mods reaction,but as Siggi said..we are all human's.
It's been a lot of fun here, and I will miss it when it closes down (the Mods have done a good enough job on moderating for the most part) but I will enjoy a fresh new forum.
I'm reminded of the old adage:
"Those who seek power are least fit to hold it."
I had numerous people ask me to be given mod status on my various forums, and not one of them was ever given it. Most of them nice chaps, and often with the best of intentions. But as soon as they asked they were ruled out. All my mods were approached by me and asked if they'd mind taking the job. Weighed, measured and found desirable from the mettle of their posts and demeanour therein.
You're a nice chap OvS, please don't misunderstand me on that. I'd just never want to see you in a police uniform. You are far too judgemental and subjective. A good moderator has to be entirely dispassionate and objective and with a good instinct for human behaviour and motivation and able to finely judge cause & effect. And be able to express reason instead of dictating sentence.
---language edited---
Yes Widowmaker, that's part of what I meant when I posted earlier that all posts need to be checked.
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