Been there, done that. I ran my own Forum in support of my array of Hell's Angels mods for well over 3 years with no issues. Occasionally there was, but PM's sent, and rules enforced, all parties were happy.Originally Posted by Siggi
We had many subjects, and many opinions, and many debates. It was a good forum, but I kept it relative to WWI and HASP.
Let's debate my personality on the new forum, not here.
Thanks,
OvS
It comes down to one's basic principles, the belief in free speech or the belief that all expression should be subject to somebody else's control.
On my forums nobody was ever banned or suspended, so long as their posts were genuine (eg, accounts were terminated only in the case of commercial spam, racism, porn or similar kinds of obvious nonsense). But the usual point was raised, that arguments, when they became too heated (flame-wars), disfigured the environment for everyone else.
So I created a special forum each time I put up a site, where overtly abusive posts were quarantined as it were. Members were free to go into it, indulge in whatever way (reading, responding, whatever) while those who wanted no part in it had no need to see any of the unpleasantness.
I had people who ferociously abused me on occasion, they weren't banned or suspended, their posts were put into the quarantine. Sometimes I'd respond, most often I'd ignore them. They were free to continue posting normally in the other forums, no matter what they said or felt about me. I took great pride in that approach.
Human beings have a fundamental right to fall out, become passionately angry towards others, for whatever reason, and express those feelings. Suppressing them, for whatever goodly-intentioned reasons, is both unjustifiably oppressive and dangerous.
That's my principle, in a nutshell. And I hold in the greatest suspicion anyone who seeks control over the expressions of others.
I think not. You'd ban me.
And it's not your personality, it's your attitude. You seek a large measure of control over the expressions of others, with yourself as judge, jury and executioner. I have no time for that kind of rot.
I remember it well. Great forum. You did a nice job with it.
Well done OVS,
Concerning your message to the SOH Forums, I couldnt have put it better myself
Regarding Siggi's opinions:- IF you agree to abide by the rules of the forum, why would you be banned?? If you step outside of those rules & continue to do so after warnings, then you deserve to be!
Personality has nothing to do with it.
Legion.
it seems we are getting a little personal here!
only to prove our point
OVS we did consider you as a mod
but with the constant trouble in the Off forums
we thought it better to have a non hands on mod
actually its 75% admins that monitor this forum
we do not do that with any other forum
H
No problem Henry. That was the same reason Winder gave me as well. Nothing to do with personalities or anything else. It was to do with common interests.
Middle did a top notch job for us. I will miss him as well as yourself... and that damn avatar!!! I love the expression on his face.
Believe me, I don't take it personal... but you have to agree, this kinda hurts.
All the best,
OvS
You got my $20 for 2 months use of SOH/OFF 3 - both of which I'd never heard of prior - and after you said you were shutting the forum down I deservedly asked about a refund in a PM. What I got from you was "bye bye, thats the way it is"
That's personal.
that was in a private message
its only against the rules in public
in which you just broke,
I did not Make you donate
and i am not in charge of donations
i am getting more tired of this aggravation
you are only making it sooner than later
H
Over50,
Look, I'm not defending SOH's actions, but what you paid for is use of SOH, not OFF's forum. And it's voluntary. I agree with you, a reply like that would have sent me through the roof as well, but their fund drive was to support them, not us.
Hence our decision to press on. Hopefully, we can change that feeling you have now to a good time on the new forum we are looking in to.
OvS
Now who's getting personal..
After nearly 70 years of living and better than 20 years in a management position when I had to earn a living let's just say what has occurred here is not a new experience. I've had to deal with all types and this is just more of the same.
The $20 isn't the issue so much as it is the manner in which I was unceremoniously told to take a hike when I civily inquired about a refund in a PM - which I did out of courtesy vs a post in the forum. And now I'm being chastised for going public with the stuff-it reply I got.
As to what has evolved interms of response from both parties since the intial declaration to shut down the OFF forum, clearly the OFF dev's/team have demonstrated a clear measure of civility and graciousness unlike most of the SOH respondents.
Guys,
The OFF group has crossed over to the dark side, payware – it’s a whole new ballgame.
OFF has been on these forums for a long time. So no matter how you look at it, SOH and crew have given a lot of volunteer work (they represent the truest flight simmers). WH seems like good guy and SOH is one of the very best run flight simulation forums.
As a member of SOH, it is not right to ask for money back from a volunteer force that has served for so long. It’s time to shake hands and wish each other well. We’re all in the same family, and chances are your paths will cross again.
Scott.
Unfortunately it rarely pans out that way. I've been banned from more forums than I can remember, not for breaking any rules but for fighting my corner too well against a fellow member, mod or admin. Ego will have it's way, and where another member will be driven to abuse, a mod or admin will invariably be driven to bringing out the ban-stick.Well done OVS,
Concerning your message to the SOH Forums, I couldnt have put it better myself
Regarding Siggi's opinions:- IF you agree to abide by the rules of the forum, why would you be banned?? If you step outside of those rules & continue to do so after warnings, then you deserve to be!
Personality has nothing to do with it.
Legion.
That's one of the reasons I had the policy described above on my forums. Nobody feared having an opinion, and being able to express it in a forthright and honest manner. And if things did get heated they didn't need to fear being spoken down to by a staffer, and/or banned. Because no staffer had that power, which also weeded out a lot of people who would otherwise have been unsuitable for the job. How many people would be mods if they knew up front their traditional powers would be non-existent? About 5% of them. The only power they had was to intervene with reason, and move a post/s to the quarantine forum. It worked, perfectly, on every forum I ran.
I won't engage with mods or admins in debate anymore, about anything. 95% of them are incapable of having an open and forthright debate on equal terms, I've learnt that the hard way. It's like trying to argue with a police officer, doesn't matter how right you know you are, best response is always to patronize them, tell them whatever it is they want to hear (placate their ego) and move on. The alternative is to be banned (or arrested), and then have the evidence falsified usually. Had plenty of that at SimHQ in the past, posts edited and accusations and abuse given after I was no longer able to defend myself. Classic techniques from those who have had their abusive behaviour exposed publically, lost the argument completely and felt compelled to win by any other means available, no matter how underhand.
The results are usually clear to see, what I term the "buddy back-slapping, communal **********" phenomena of group-think forum membership mentality, where all debate follows an approved formula, and anyone who expresses any opinion outside of the box is set about by the established clique with the full connivance of the staff. SimHQ to a T. More of a knitting circle than a community, with the majority of posts so overwhelmingly dull one can hear the paint crack as they warp. With a queue of mods just hopping behind the curtains, looking for any excuse to jump in and show everyone their 'privilaged' status. And that's another phenomena in it's own right, those who feel so inadequate in their real lives that they are led to invest so much of their self-regard in an illusory internet status. There's a distinct ego hierarchy going on there, and being a mod on a reasonably well-known forum is close to nirvana for many. Take a close look at the visible tells...special signatures, that advertize their sense of special status, special avatars with special custom titles, exclusive coloured fonts...it's a hoot for anyone who sees it for what it is.
The SimHQ staff...bless 'em.
Anyway, hope that's given you some insights, or at least entertained you.
Over50,
If you have a problem with your donation to SOH, take it up with "the money man". That'll be the site owner, Ickie.
A donation to SOH is to keep the site up and running. A donation to the OFF crew is to help keep them guys up and running. These are two separate ventures.
As for the little spat between yourself and Henry that has spilled over from PMs into the forum...
What is posted here so far is not a personal attack. Let's keep it that way. I don't care what transpires between members via PMs...those are PERSONAL MESSAGES to be dealt with amongst the parties involved. Posts in the forum are PUBLIC.
This is just further proving the point of the constant staff/admin attention that is required because of a select few individuals. You are not making things any easier on your membership here with your actions.
With all due respect, I thought I was communicating (the PM) with Ickie..or whatever his name is. Shame on me for not knowing who the players are in the SOH hierarchy.
Siggi,
Concerning your language in post #39. I removed a rather vulgar phrase from it.
From the wording of your post, it could either be a slip or it could be an outright attempt to also be banned from here too.
If you read the Terms of Use that you agreed to when you registered here, you would know that stuff will not be tolerated here.
An "outright attempt to be banned"? Why on earth would you think that? It was indeed a slip. The word you removed is not considered a profanity here, any more than John Thomas is in the States. Although the compound-verb in which it was used could indeed be considered somewhat graphical and unacceptable to some.
My apologies for the slip, it was unintentional and occured only by virtue of the flow of thought and typing in which I was studiously engaged.
It was the entire compound-verb that was removed as being vulgar.
Yes, I noticed that. Hence my reference to it. On it's own the word is entirely inoffensive, but coupled with the other it is indeed somewhat vulgar. Not for public consumption then, but admit it made you giggle. Just a bit.
Sorry to see there is such a rift here. I just barely got started reading through all the excellent info and entertaining posts in these forums, and will be sorry to see them shut down. My thanks to all the folks who have been devoting their time and energies to keeping the OFF forums up and running smoothly. It is too bad we have to part ways. I wish each of you only the best in all your endeavours.
Salute!
Lou
Contrary to popular belief I suspect... Ditto from me!
I totally agree,
Its such a shame to be ending things this way,
& I also wish the SOH team the very best in the future, & thank them for all their efforts.
should old aquaintance be forgot.... :friday:
I made a donation twice to OFF over the years and got a medal... woopee. I was pleased to help. I also recently gave a donation to SOH bandwidth appeal. Inow feel somewhat stung!
Unhappy Days,
Conrad.
Oh Well as the old saying goes "All good thing must come to an end" I am grateful for the positive things that this forum has given me. First and foremost OFF, and just as important I have made some great friendships, that I hope to maintain in the future. Also there is another old saying that also applies " On to bigger and better things"
So thanks SOH, goodbye and seeya' around sometime.
Tony
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