The Long, Slow Goodbye AI Death

[Bullethead]

I'm starting this thread to get this issue out of the bullet strength and structural break-up threads because I think it's a separate issue from either.

I'm seeing the following death routines of AI planes:

• plane catches fire, noses down immediately, and crashes quickly
• (rare since 1.25) plane, after being badly hit but left alone for a while due to other threats, eventually stalls at about 1000' and remains somewhat nose-high as it drops straight down from the point of the stall to pancake.
• plane is hit with a snapshot while pointed somewhat nose-down at high speed, and continues its trajectory without attempt to recover.
• plane is badly hit while flying more or less level (usually after being hit enough beforehand to be stuck going straight, level, and slow already), and continues onwards as such, slower and lower, until it finally meets the ground in what appears to be a forced landing until it explodes.

I believe the last 2 are the results of pilot death or incapacitation. I'm not certain because I use realistic sounds. Hence, my motor drowns out everything else so if the AI pilots are screaming, I don't hear it.

Anyway, I'm thinking that when the AI pilot dies, he goes "hands off" without further ado. No death grip on the stick, no involuntary spasms from head trauma to kick the controls around, etc. Thus, the plane is left to its own devices and momentum. If it's in a dive, it continues in a dive and soon goes smash. OTOH, if it's going level, it remains going level.

Apart from the FE2 and perhaps the E.III, I've found all planes in OFF to be remarkably stable. They fly along quite well hands off, even if you haven't jacked with the trim. Most have a slight nose-down tendency, but very few of them want to roll or yaw enough to notice, especially at low power. This is with R100, BTW, in case you're wondering.

So what I'm thinking is, perhaps when we see the AI doing that long, slow goodnight, it's a dead man at the controls and the stable plane is just gliding on down by itself.

What say you all?

[LeBlaque]

I concur with your observations and appreciate you pulling this out of the other threads (as I commented on this issue elsewhere). As previously stated, I would like to see some further evidence of a kill, whatever that evidence may be. I, too, play with realistic sounds and cannot hear any death cries from the pilot/observer, etc. As a result, it would be very helpful to have more variety in "crashing behavior" to know when a "shot down" occurred. I do not have enough discipline to let a gliding aircraft go, as I want to observe a kill and obtain the credit, sometimes to the detriment of my wingman and flight. I'm sure the OBD team will continue to work on these behaviors so that we end up with the appropriate visual clues.

[Mk2]

I did not know the pilot screams...

Bullet head, those are definitely the death sequences I have seen.

When I see the slow glide I make sure I hammer them one last time as one got away like that after I broke off thinking he was done (never got to fill out claim and did not see crash).

I concur , it's a pilot hit.

I actually like the tension of waiting to see if the blow was fatal or not...I kind of like it the way it is. Once he impacts I get the message "you shot down a XXXXX" thats enough for me.

[DMW_NZ]

Interesting. Maybe my marksmanship isn't as bad as I've been thinking, since I get a lot of the "long goodbye".

I remember an episode of the old English TV show "Wings" where one of the characters is killed and his BE2c remains in a turning circle, getting slowly lower, with him dead at the controls ...

[Queeg]

Personally, I'd like to see a bit more variety in this aspect of the sim. It seems pretty rare that a stricken plane just plummets from the sky, though the historical accounts of WWI air combat describe that as a fairly common occurrence. Not sure if this is moddable or a hard-coded aspect of CFS, but I'd like to see the AI DM include more catastrophic kills -- albeit rarely. The slow death spiral gets a bit dull after awhile.

[Winder]

Personally, I'd like to see a bit more variety in this aspect of the sim. It seems pretty rare that a stricken plane just plummets from the sky, though the historical accounts of WWI air combat describe that as a fairly common occurrence. Not sure if this is moddable or a hard-coded aspect of CFS, but I'd like to see the AI DM include more catastrophic kills -- albeit rarely. The slow death spiral gets a bit dull after awhile.

Its a reality now in 1.26 a lot more variation - but if you kill the pilot it will do the slow descent....


WM

[shredward]

From http://www.raafmuseum.com.au/

"One of the most unusual incidents of World War I occurred in December 1917 when a 3 Squadron RE8 was attacked by six Albatros scouts. After bringing down one enemy aircraft the gunner was mortally wounded by a bullet which passed through his chest before striking the pilot in the head, killing him instantly. Although damaged, the RE8 continued to fly by itself until it ran out of fuel and landed relatively intact in a snow drift some fifty miles from the scene of the combat. The Albatros bought down in this engagement was presented to Australia as a war trophy and is now on display at the Australian War Memorial, Canberra."

[Gousgounis]

Its a reality now in 1.26 a lot more variation - but if you kill the pilot it will do the slow descent....

Cheers! :ernae: Thats exactly what we needed.
P.S. Nice story shred!

[Baywing]

Once in a while I'll get the Tac to show a black square, which I assume means killed. (I also get the read-out for the kill) I would think that indicates a dead pilot.

[Bullethead]

Its a reality now in 1.26 a lot more variation - but if you kill the pilot it will do the slow descent....

I take it that the long, slow good-bye really is a case of "dead man flying" then? If so, perhaps you could introduce something to lower the frequency of this happening? While there are several recorded incidents of this happening, all are treated as very strange, very rare occurances today and were seen as positively paranormal at the time by the folks on the scene. Out of all the thousands of pilots killed in the war, this only seems to have happened a few times. Yet in OFF it happens several times in every dogfight.

I'm thinking there are 2 factors that contribute to the "zombie plane" syndrome. First, OFF planes seem rather more stable than perhaps at least some of them should be. Second, dead pilots apparently simply "switch off" without touching the controls again. Stable plane (+ low speed from damaged motor) + hands off = long, slow good-bye. The stability issue might need looking at for the future but it sounds like a lot of work, so I'd think it would be best to tweak what the pilot does when he's dead.

I've seen a lot of people get killed in combat and most of them didn't go quietly into that long night. They were too full of adrenaline to accept defeat so easily. They usually flailed around some, or continued to squeeze their triggers, and some even took a few steps minus their heads. It's also my understanding that few WW1 pilots flew with their shoulder harnesses on because that prevented them from looking behind them. Thus, even if they were just limp ragdolls, their upper bodies could still topple over onto their sticks.

So it seems to me that instead of just "switching off" the pilot when he dies, you could have the dead pilot lock the controls in some non-level configuration intended to reach the ground fairly quickly. Just a suggestion.

[LeBlaque]

So it seems to me that instead of just "switching off" the pilot when he dies, you could have the dead pilot lock the controls in some non-level configuration intended to reach the ground fairly quickly. Just a suggestion.

If that could be accomplished, it would result in some very random, and exceptional (as well as appropriate visual cues) deaths. Randomzie the location of the stick (and rudder?) upon death and let the plane's flight characteristics take it from there.

BTW, what IS that black dot on the radar?

Regards,
LeBlaque

[UK_Widowmaker]

I quite often hear the pilot scream...but obviously, you have to be pretty damn close!
I always try to shoot the pilot anyhow!... He is the weakest link....He MUST die!..Muhahahahahaha

[UK_Widowmaker]

I've seen a lot of people get killed in combat and most of them didn't go quietly into that long night. They were too full of adrenaline to accept defeat so easily. They usually flailed around some, or continued to squeeze their triggers, and some even took a few steps minus their heads.

Phew!...That's a nasty business you're in Bullethead.... But someone has to do it.

[Bullethead]

If that could be accomplished, it would result in some very random, and exceptional (as well as appropriate visual cues) deaths. Randomzie the location of the stick (and rudder?) upon death and let the plane's flight characteristics take it from there.

I'd like to see some flopping around and spirals, maybe 1 way 1st and then the other, but the general tendency should be downward rather quickly IMHO. That seems to have been the usual outcome.

Phew!...That's a nasty business you're in Bullethead.... But someone has to do it.

That was long ago and far away. In fact, 18 years ago this very day I was still trying to absorb the news that the war was "over", despite now having to go back and sweep through all the bunkers we'd overrun in the previous few days but hadn't had time to clear out then .

[UK_Widowmaker]

My Goodness..was it that long ago?..time sure flies

[77Scout]

Polovski's 'Preview Movie 9' shows a Camel pilot scream and the plane spirals down exactly as we have all seen in various WW1 footage. It is perfect, yet it seems a very rare occurance in-game so far. Gives hope, as it shows it can happen.

Just a wild guess, but the DM seems to model damage to the plane as an imposed dampening of the controls and loss of pilot input...could contribute to the tendancy for damaged or dead planes to continue straight flight??

[quoth]

Having been recently re-reading my Biggles WW1 stories , a phrase often comes up
" ... the nose of the albatros jerked upwards, a sure sign that the pilot had been hit..." I know these are fictional stories and written for excitement but they are based on reality and very few simply glided slowly away.

Q

[Bullethead]

My Goodness..was it that long ago?..time sure flies

I hadn't really noticed until you made me think of it. I consider each day I continue to exist as "bonus time" of uncertain duration because, but for my real-life "death on die roll" setting (topic save), I shouldn't be here many times over. As such, my remaining years (now that I'm a middle-aged old SOB beyond constant skirt-chasing) are best spent with sims and booze.

But my continued existence gives you an idea of the different rates of time passage in this world and the next. I'm only here until the prison of Hell has its next morning roll-call and headcount, and I turn up missing. 18 years here so far is less than a night there. Hmm, that calls for a drink :friday:

[GaryR]

My latest pilot has 16 kills and I have never seen a flame yet.... heard screams, seen the slow deaths, lots of smoke, but never a flame.

[Queeg]

So it seems to me that instead of just "switching off" the pilot when he dies, you could have the dead pilot lock the controls in some non-level configuration intended to reach the ground fairly quickly. Just a suggestion.

Sounds like a good solution if doable.

[cpirrmann]

I was thinking and found a flaw in your argument...maybe. The Eindekker. I've seen it exhibit the same long slow glide to earth with the elevators in the full up (or near to it) position. If the pilot just switched off, the eindekker would nose down pretty severely unless the fm for the AI is different than for us. If not, then the pilot may not be switching off so much as no more control changes or the controls stay where they were when the pilot was hit. Either way the resolution suggested is still valid though. Just occurred to me, that's all.