Camel roll rate…and other FM comments
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Thread: Camel roll rate…and other FM comments

  1. #1
    Jimko
    Guest

    Camel roll rate…and other FM comments

    One of the reasons that I’ve always considered the cost of OFF P3 to be such a great deal is the fact that with this phenomenal sim comes an outstanding amount of direct, readily available support from the development team…unlike any other that I’ve seen.

    Since the topic of roll rates and FMs has been raised by others, I’ll add some comments for future considerations by Winder, Polovski, and team.

    I know that the development of flight models for a sim like this one must be a daunting task and trying to emulate the flight characteristics of so many ac that are not readily available today is a challenge. More importantly, perhaps, is the fact that in the sim there has to be some sense of relative realistic flight modeling, ie. how the ac types behave in realistic flight characteristics as compared to each other…a BIG challenge!

    It’s likely that no one is ever completely happy with the final result. As in the old adage “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”, so is the perception of sim flight modeling. Many of us rely solely on past written biographies and the descriptions of flight characteristics experienced by the pilots. We all develop our own notions of how they flew. Having said that, the developers still have done an amazing job considering the scope of the project. I certainly am not critical of the results, but like others, I wish for some future ‘fine tuning’, at least for my own pleasure.

    It would be wonderful if I , for example, could easily modify the roll rate of my favourite kite, the Camel, just for my own use… to satisfy the impressions that I’ve developed about how this ac behaved. At the same time, some of her habits were rather mean and could make flying the Camel in a sim near impossible, although some of us might like to try even that challenge.

    Victor Yeates, the author of “Winged Victory” gave some good impressions of what flying the Camel was like. It is generally accepted that although his book is fiction, not only did he choose to write a fictionalized account of WW1 flying experience rather than a biography but he also drew heavily upon his personal experiences as a Camel pilot. So I take what he has said about flying it to be a valid, honest description.

    Many of us have read his book, but I’ll quote a few of his comments here about flying the Camel:

    Re training:
    “Camels were wonderful fliers when you had got used to them, which took about three months of hard flying. At the end of that time you were either dead, a nervous wreck, or the hell of a pilot and a terror to Huns…”

    Re turns:
    “And in the more legitimate matter of vertical turns, nothing in the skies could follow in so tight a circle...”

    Re the half-roll (Split S):
    “The same with the half-roll. Nothing would half-roll like a Camel. A twitch of the stick and flick of the rudder and you were on your back. The nose dropped at once and you pulled out having made a complete reversal of direction in the least possible time.
    Thomson, the squadron stunt expert told him that it (half-roll) was just the first half of a roll followed by the second half of a loop; the only stunt useful in fighting. If you were going the wrong way, it was the quickest known method of returning in your slipstream.”

    Re the loop (he didn’t like looping a Camel)
    “But a Camel had to be flown carefully round with exactly the right amount of left rudder, or else it would rear and buck and hang upside down and flop and spin.”

    Re general flight:
    “…a Camel had to be held in flying position all the time, and was out of it in a flash. It was nose light, having a rotary engine weighing next to nothing per horse power, and was rigged tail heavy so that you had to be holding her down all the time. Take your hand off the stick and it would rear right up with a terrific jerk and stand on its tail.”

    Re ground strafing (which he hated due to ground anti-ac machine gun fire):
    “Unfortunately, they were good machines for ground-strafing. They could dive straight down on anything, and when a few feet off the ground, go straight up again.”

    Re speed:
    “…a Camel was a wonderful machine in a scrap. If only it had been fifty per cent faster! There was the rub. A Camel could neither catch anything except by surprise, nor hurry away from an awkward situation, and seldom had the option of accepting or declining combat…You couldn’t have everything.”

    In his book he has a few observations about German planes such as the DR1 being able to suddenly climb like a “lift”.

    Interesting comments about the Camel. I’ll happily settle for at least a faster roll rate…someday, please, as OFF keeps evolving!

    Thanks for the continued great work and excellent support OFF team!

  2. #2
    Winder
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimko View Post
    One of the reasons that I’ve always considered the cost of OFF P3 to be such a great deal is the fact that with this phenomenal sim comes an outstanding amount of direct, readily available support from the development team…unlike any other that I’ve seen.

    Since the topic of roll rates and FMs has been raised by others, I’ll add some comments for future considerations by Winder, Polovski, and team.

    I know that the development of flight models for a sim like this one must be a daunting task and trying to emulate the flight characteristics of so many ac that are not readily available today is a challenge. More importantly, perhaps, is the fact that in the sim there has to be some sense of relative realistic flight modeling, ie. how the ac types behave in realistic flight characteristics as compared to each other…a BIG challenge!

    It’s likely that no one is ever completely happy with the final result. As in the old adage “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”, so is the perception of sim flight modeling. Many of us rely solely on past written biographies and the descriptions of flight characteristics experienced by the pilots. We all develop our own notions of how they flew. Having said that, the developers still have done an amazing job considering the scope of the project. I certainly am not critical of the results, but like others, I wish for some future ‘fine tuning’, at least for my own pleasure.

    It would be wonderful if I , for example, could easily modify the roll rate of my favourite kite, the Camel, just for my own use… to satisfy the impressions that I’ve developed about how this ac behaved. At the same time, some of her habits were rather mean and could make flying the Camel in a sim near impossible, although some of us might like to try even that challenge.

    Victor Yeates, the author of “Winged Victory” gave some good impressions of what flying the Camel was like. It is generally accepted that although his book is fiction, not only did he choose to write a fictionalized account of WW1 flying experience rather than a biography but he also drew heavily upon his personal experiences as a Camel pilot. So I take what he has said about flying it to be a valid, honest description.

    Many of us have read his book, but I’ll quote a few of his comments here about flying the Camel:

    Re training:
    “Camels were wonderful fliers when you had got used to them, which took about three months of hard flying. At the end of that time you were either dead, a nervous wreck, or the hell of a pilot and a terror to Huns…”

    Re turns:
    “And in the more legitimate matter of vertical turns, nothing in the skies could follow in so tight a circle...”

    Re the half-roll (Split S):
    “The same with the half-roll. Nothing would half-roll like a Camel. A twitch of the stick and flick of the rudder and you were on your back. The nose dropped at once and you pulled out having made a complete reversal of direction in the least possible time.
    Thomson, the squadron stunt expert told him that it (half-roll) was just the first half of a roll followed by the second half of a loop; the only stunt useful in fighting. If you were going the wrong way, it was the quickest known method of returning in your slipstream.”

    Re the loop (he didn’t like looping a Camel)
    “But a Camel had to be flown carefully round with exactly the right amount of left rudder, or else it would rear and buck and hang upside down and flop and spin.”

    Re general flight:
    “…a Camel had to be held in flying position all the time, and was out of it in a flash. It was nose light, having a rotary engine weighing next to nothing per horse power, and was rigged tail heavy so that you had to be holding her down all the time. Take your hand off the stick and it would rear right up with a terrific jerk and stand on its tail.”

    Re ground strafing (which he hated due to ground anti-ac machine gun fire):
    “Unfortunately, they were good machines for ground-strafing. They could dive straight down on anything, and when a few feet off the ground, go straight up again.”

    Re speed:
    “…a Camel was a wonderful machine in a scrap. If only it had been fifty per cent faster! There was the rub. A Camel could neither catch anything except by surprise, nor hurry away from an awkward situation, and seldom had the option of accepting or declining combat…You couldn’t have everything.”

    In his book he has a few observations about German planes such as the DR1 being able to suddenly climb like a “lift”.

    Interesting comments about the Camel. I’ll happily settle for at least a faster roll rate…someday, please, as OFF keeps evolving!

    Thanks for the continued great work and excellent support OFF team!
    We have just completed revising and checking all the roll rates - as per the above 'issues' sticky post - its in 1.26 already.

    We have also completed some revisions of DM and the G factors where required.

    1.26 will now be tested and then made available - when?
    Cannot say.

    HTH

    WM

  3. #3
    Jimko
    Guest
    Excellent news, Winder! No one can complain about "customer service" at this shop!

    Is it just my install?...In QC I just noticed that if I have any season other than "summer" selelcted, the sim does not respond to the time of day menu (dawn, dusk, etc.) If the season is set as summer, than the other menu choices work fine. It kind of had me going for a while...:isadizzy:

    I haven't noticed any mention of this as a problem anywhere...

  4. #4
    Jimko
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimko View Post
    Excellent news, Winder! No one can complain about "customer service" at this shop!

    Is it just my install?...In QC I just noticed that if I have any season other than "summer" selelcted, the sim does not respond to the time of day menu (dawn, dusk, etc.) If the season is set as summer, than the other menu choices work fine. It kind of had me going for a while...:isadizzy:

    I haven't noticed any mention of this as a problem anywhere...
    Has anyone else seen this seasonal/time-of-day override oddity in QC? Only in the "summer" seasonal setting can I change to dawn or dusk, etc. In the other seasons like "spring" it seems to just default back to "afternoon" no matter what I've selected.

  5. #5
    Winder
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimko View Post
    Has anyone else seen this seasonal/time-of-day override oddity in QC? Only in the "summer" seasonal setting can I change to dawn or dusk, etc. In the other seasons like "spring" it seems to just default back to "afternoon" no matter what I've selected.
    I have just tested this there is a bug in this module - will be fixed in 1.26

    HTH

    WM

  6. #6
    Jimko
    Guest
    Thank you, Winder!

    Sorry that you have found another 'insect' in the module...hope you can kill it without too much effort...

  7. #7
    Interlocutor
    Guest

    Sopwith Triplane Diving Issues

    Hopefully this is a good place to make this comment.

    I've flown the Sopwith Tripe, single gun, for many hours, and I've noted that in any kind of a dive, the Tripe quickly builds up speed, too quickly it seems to me given the way other aircraft seem to perform in dives.

    I'm making this comment because I know Winder is working on some fixes to FM's for 1.26, thought maybe this one could be looked at. I haven't flown the 2-gun Tripe much, can't comment on that as readily.

    Love the sim, BTW...

  8. #8
    Gremlin_WoH
    Guest
    Hummmm ... to jump on the bandwaggon, yes, the S.E.5a can make 520 mph in a dive. Without breaking I may add.

  9. #9
    Siggi
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Gremlin_WoH View Post
    Hummmm ... to jump on the bandwaggon, yes, the S.E.5a can make 520 mph in a dive. Without breaking I may add.
    520mph?! I can't get more than 123mph out of a Camel, and that's vertical. What's the Se5 got that the Camel hasn't, a turbo?

  10. #10
    Gremlin_WoH
    Guest
    No, maybe it had no drag.

  11. #11
    TSmoke
    Guest
    I have to agree with Interlocutor on how the Sopwith triplane picks up speed in a dive. I wish the P38 in IL2 would accelerate like the triplane does.

    Have to kill the throttle and gentley spiral down otherwise you get warnings and damage, tried both the single gun and twin gun version, and they both are like a freight train without brakes. Had one up to 350mph near krapped my pants.

  12. #12
    :FI:Pike
    Guest
    Dear All,
    The reason that the Tripe accelerates very quickly is because compared to other aircraft it has a high aspect ratio wing (long and narrow). The other machine that accelerates quickly is the N.28 which is another reason why it had the wing leading edge stripping together with the lack of structural support for the fabric. It accelerated very rapidly in a dive (and on the level).
    With regard to the roll rates, this is the most difficult area and relies very heavily on pilot accounts. I think we need to be careful about accurate FM's because as I see it, unlike us, in R/L pilots also have the tactile imput from their senses. Therefore if we go too far with for example the description of the Camel looping, how will we know what our orientation in the loop was with only the narrow window of TIR (and any force feedback) to work with. So I think that there will be many Camel losses due to too much sensitivity and people will then not fly it.
    best regards,
    Pike.

  13. #13
    Jimko
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by :FI:Pike View Post
    Dear All,
    With regard to the roll rates, this is the most difficult area and relies very heavily on pilot accounts. I think we need to be careful about accurate FM's because as I see it, unlike us, in R/L pilots also have the tactile imput from their senses. Therefore if we go too far with for example the description of the Camel looping, how will we know what our orientation in the loop was with only the narrow window of TIR (and any force feedback) to work with. So I think that there will be many Camel losses due to too much sensitivity and people will then not fly it.
    best regards,
    Pike.
    Yes, what you say is true.

    But, I did state in my original post that the Camel had some nasty traits that if included in the sim flight model might make it too difficult to fly and that is probably true of other ac as well. Developers always have to compromise these things to some extent. And, more importantly, the developers have to try and maintain the flight characteristics of these ac relative to other types, so if the Camel was known to be slower than some, as it was, they can’t just bump up the speed which would upset the characteristic of how it flew in comparison to other ac at the time. On the other hand, if the FM speed had been set much too high, I’m sure the developers (and everyone else) would want it brought down to a level that made it more accurate relative to the other ac.

    I think (according to documentation and pilot accounts) that the Camel is flight modeled quite well except perhaps for the roll rate as past accounts suggest. This is an important characteristic that can be altered without upsetting the realistic relationship with other ac and without making it too difficult for sim pilots. I don’t think that we should expect the FMs to emulate the originals to the Nth degree or we will need a whole new set of FM standards and perhaps selectable choices in ‘amount of realistic flight characteristics’…ie, 1.easy, 2.difficult, 3.realistic and horribly difficult.

    I included all the quotes for interest sake, as it is only the roll rate I hope can be changed, nothing else, and it appears that Winder is looking after it in the latest patch.

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