AI can fire more bullets--- Why?

[CW3SF]

I fire a quick burst of 10 or so then 1 or 2 more burst from less than 200m, most often less than 100m, and start to see some hits. Most of my accuracy is in the 20% to 30%. It takes several burst to down an AI plane.

When a AI gets on me the burst last for a few seconds but the hits are WAY out of line with massive hits and my plane becomes a weck going somewhere to happen. It almost seems that they get more "boom boom" and several hits per round compared to us.

This is becoming not fun.

When running after the 1.25 patch My "old pusher" in 1916 lost a lot of aileron control ( the roll rate is sluggish and the ailerons move very little)

I for one would almost like to go back to P2 if this is not fixed.

I have been flying sims for years, mostly set up to the hard level, and with this one all I do is turn tail and run or enlist a new pilot. In fact most of my time is spent enlisting a new pilot.

It is not fun---- and a bit unfair.

CW3SF

[gimpyguy]

Sometimes you'll swear the AI are using Browning .50 cal's, especially when they snipe at you from 400 yds.
It's a CFS3 thing, they think it's WWII
They've gotten allot better, it used to be 1000 yds

Get's to really be a pain, you can't hide in a cloud . . from the AI

[Winder]

I fire a quick burst of 10 or so then 1 or 2 more burst from less than 200m, most often less than 100m, and start to see some hits. Most of my accuracy is in the 20% to 30%. It takes several burst to down an AI plane.

When a AI gets on me the burst last for a few seconds but the hits are WAY out of line with massive hits and my plane becomes a weck going somewhere to happen. It almost seems that they get more "boom boom" and several hits per round compared to us.

This is becoming not fun.

When running after the 1.25 patch My "old pusher" in 1916 lost a lot of aileron control ( the roll rate is sluggish and the ailerons move very little)

I for one would almost like to go back to P2 if this is not fixed.

I have been flying sims for years, mostly set up to the hard level, and with this one all I do is turn tail and run or enlist a new pilot. In fact most of my time is spent enlisting a new pilot.

It is not fun---- and a bit unfair.

CW3SF

Range is now reduced in V1.26/V1.3 - P2 was even further range so you would be going to a worse scenario.


HTH

WM

[Fortiesboy]

When a AI gets on me the burst last for a few seconds but the hits are WAY out of line with massive hits and my plane becomes a weck going somewhere to happen. It almost seems that they get more "boom boom" and several hits per round compared to us.

This is becoming not fun.


CW3SF

Winder et al- S!

Is this thing about two or three bullets from the AI crippling your plane something that can be varied? I.e can the AI induced damage be toned down at all.
I've seen a few posts about this and, speaking for myself, it doesn't help the fun factor, as it is now.

TIA

[Winder]

Fun Factor Vs Realism is always a tough choice and issue - and it depends how you are approaching the sim...

Yes we have control over all aspects of AI gunfire BUT....if we make it too easy you will easily make the 17 hours with average skills and have more unrealistic kill numbers and yes then we are tending towards Arcade and we are not about that at all...

But we are looking at these aspects and I guess a POLL is in order.

WM

[Winder]

AI Gun Fire will be scaleable in V1.26/V1.3

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...127#post126127

HTH

WM

[Fortiesboy]

AI Gun Fire will be scaleable in V1.26/V1.3

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...127#post126127

HTH

WM

That's great WM -Thanks - I take note of what you say above, but one man's realism can be another's irritation.

I know that you're wary of arcade, but realism is where three bullets from the AI planes has about the same effect as three bullets from my plane.
-Or should be. As it is, the objective player of OFF must be seeing this as absent.
Now it may be programmed that way in order to "try to even things up "for the AI, and their limitations, against us real people ; but it can be done too far - and then we get Mr AI killing or crippling you from 400yards with one short burst. whilst you empty a whole magazine ( the only one you have, BTW ) in an AI who refuses to go down.

And whilst the diehards of this sim will play the sim, notwithstanding these anomalies, the casual QC player ( and I'll bet there will be more QC being played than campaign ) and newbies may be more fun conscious than the campaigner and find the "realism " too irritating to stay with it.

I think I've said before that it has to be acknowledged how the newbies come to take up and want to continue to play these flight sims. They are shown them by enthusiastic mates and they need the ability to have fun ( i.e kills ) soon in their initial forays in to the sim.
Then they might buy it ;
and later they find the depth to the sim and even more enjoyment.

So, scaleability is the way to go, IMHO. Seems to satisfy everyone.

And help sales too,I should think.

[CW3SF]

I tried to count on my last few missions the # of "red listed lines of hits to my airplane--- hard to do.

From what I could see during a 1 to no more than a 2 second burst on my plane there were over 20 described records of dammage to my plane. The Fok 111 must have had alot more than ONE GUN!!

This is totally UNREALISTIC in all respect to total rate of fire and % accuracy of hits.

When I get REAL close (50 to 100m) I can get about 40 to 50% hits with one second or less burst. My gun would have to fire at a rate of 40 to 50 rounds per second to cause 20 or more dammaging hits on the AI craft.

You talk about lasting 17 hours in WW1 as a combat pilot. Let's not forget the training was less than good. Most of us out here in "sim-land" have been flying for years in both real and "sim" planes. Hell I broke in on a PT17, and a BT13.

That should enough to chew on for now. Thanks for you input!

CW3SF

[Siggi]

Spandau RoF approx 500 rounds per minute, approx 8 rounds per second.

You should count on some rounds ricochetting off stuff and doing more damage than one simple hole.

I'm going to do some experiments and see exactly what it takes to be properly shot down. The only experience I've had of it so far, that I can clearly remember, was having the elevator on my DH2 rendered totally useless by a number of bursts from an Eindeker.

[Siggi]

Well codswallop.

I did a QC, me vs one Veteran Alb DV, and I flew a long lazy curve. Approx 70% to 80% of the rounds hitting me made no noise at all (I was looking back at him the whole time, bits flying and puffs of smoke from the hits). I was absolutely plastered. My chap screamed, engine still running but producing very little power. I was able to land and survive. Still had plenty of roll, pitch and yaw, but certainly not enough to dogfight.

Going by that one experience I'd say it's pretty bloody hard to commit suicide, never mind die when one is actively trying to survive.

My plane took as many hits as an AI does, no question of it. It is therefore my considered opinion that the DM, AI's and player's respectively, is spot-on.

Let's be honest, we stick on the tail of an already-dead AI just to see him go down so we can claim him. We have to do that most of the time because it's rare to see a target we've plastered go straight into the deck. What we need is to see planes suffer structural failure, from both bullet damage and fire. But I'm assuming the engine can't do that.

THAT is the limitation/issue. Looks like the AI needs an entire mag because he rarely goes straight down. Maybe that can be addressed? Even when I've heard the longest scream they seem to just keep on flying.

[Gousgounis]

Range is now reduced in V1.26/V1.3

I know that I will sound like a spoiled brat but...
How much reduced???!!???

[Bullethead]

Spandau RoF approx 500 rounds per minute, approx 8 rounds per second.

Maybe on a ground mount, but not when firing through a prop. The blades blocked the gun many times more frequently per second than the gun's action could cycle. Thus, it wasn't a matter of pausing the gun's firing, it was a matter of picking a safe time to fire a shot.

Another thing to consider is that WW1 planes had fixed-pitch props, so prop RPM varied directly with engine RPM. Because the synchronizer mechanism was all direct cams and linkages, its speed of operation thus also varied directly with engine RPM, which in turn made the ROF vary. As I understand things, this resulted in much lower ROFs at high engine RPM than at lower engine RPM.

The result of all this was that under the best conditions of low engine RPM, gun ROF was usually about 12-15% lower than on the ground, and was as much as 25-30% lower at high RPM.

My plane took as many hits as an AI does, no question of it. It is therefore my considered opinion that the DM, AI's and player's respectively, is spot-on.

On the receiving end, I find the only variable is in the concentration of and severity of the hit hits I take, not on their frequency. Regular AI enemies shotgun my plane so aren't likely to inflict serious damage on any single part. This is very analogous to the damage I do them, even with close-range tracking shots. I can have long fights with these guys as we both die a death of a thousand cuts. Aces, OTOH, put every round in the same hole more or less, so whatever they touch is instantly obliterated. Taking 1 burts from an ace is usually certain, immediate death, even in snap-shot situations.

In both cases, however, the number of hits appears to be about the same per burst. That's going by the number of red text lines that appear top center of my screen. And in both cases, that whole text buffer fills up completely from top to bottom simultaneously, and no doubt overflows, so that I only see part of the total number of hits I take. This is in sharp contrast to the blue lines recording my own hits on AI planes, which gradually appear 1 line at a time and usually don't come close to filling up the whole buffer before my firing opportunity is over.

Now it does seem to be that some of the red text is redundant, as in multiple lines per bullet reporting not only the hit but the damage done by it and what on my plane no longer works. Hence, enemy fire will always make more lines of red text than my fire does blue text. But it still seems that the AI gets far more hits per burst than I do, especially in long-range snapshots.

On a related point, AI planes appear to be completely immune to structural failure in normal flight. My AI wingmen go into screaming dives and get well over 200mph without falling apart, but I can't follow them without dying. OTOH, it definitely seems to me that my plane gets more fragile when damaged. So it could well be that the AI's immunity to structural failure keeps it from falling apart under G when you damage it, thus allowing it to stay in the air longer than you can in that situation.

[griphos]

I just saw this thread. I want to weigh in on the, if not exactly newbie, at least novice side of this. I've flown a good bit in real life. Never got my ticket. I used to fly combat sims many years ago. Not for the last 8 or so at least. I finally bought a decent computer and bought FSX right away. Then I found OFF. I've been flying it a few weeks.

That's for background. To frame the following: I love the AI and flight dynamics of this sim. It is SOOOO much better than those I used to fly. I've flown mostly QC, and I have realism at 100 (automixture, recently, but rear guns at wide). I have NO trouble flying or landing these planes. I doubt I could say that with the same elan about the real ones. So it seems to me accommodation has been made for my, realistically speaking, less than perfect real world pilot skills. As for AI damage and bullet power specifically, I mostly shoot them down, not the other way around. I typically fly QC with a wing man and at least one more enemy than in my flight. Sometimes they'll get a good burst into me and do me some damage, but that damage seems very realistically modeled to me. Sometimes my engine will start to run rough. Sometimes I lose a little control authority. I've mostly been able to continue fighting and down my plane in those scenarios. When I haven't, I've been able to land. I don't think I've ever been shot down. I can't be sure I remember precisely. I do recall one death from being unable to land a too badly damaged craft. So that counts as shot down, I suppose. I've died a number of times, that's for sure. It's almost always been from mid-air collisions. Sometimes my fault. Sometimes theirs. When not from collisions, it's been from stalling and spinning low to the ground. My guess is that used to happen a fair bit in these crates!

Last night I flew a campaign mission with four others in my flight. We were supposed to shoot down an enemy observation balloon. Over the line, three different (and large) flights of enemy AlbDII converged on us. I signaled my flight to attack and I tried to take out the balloon with my rockets. I failed. And two DIIs attacked me in the process and shot me up a bit. I turned on them and downed one, then the other. Luckily for me, the three of us were off by ourselves while my flight had its hands terribly full over the line with most of the planes from the three enemy flights. On my way back to help them, my engine started missing terribly. Damage from the shots I took, I suppose. This wasn't good. I was over enemy lines and didn't have much power and was losing what I had fast. No chance to climb and run. And several DII's were heading my way. I flew as low as possible (I know I clipped quite a few leaves off of a number of trees). I turned on one approaching DII and fired a short burst and he immediately exploded into flames. That's never happened before. I got some lucky hits on him, I guess. But that shows that we can sometimes hit them just right with only a few bullets. That sure helped. That left three DIIs. I was at the line at the time and flew right on the deck to keep my speed up as much as possible. The three DIIs hesitated to follow me over the line that low. It saved my life, I'm sure. One threw a few desultory bursts my way, but my neck had a crick in it at that point from constantly looking backward and jinking when I saw the tracers. There were a few more hits, but I made it to the nearest airfield in friendly territory and landed my poor Pup. One DII followed all the way. My craft was destroyed. I was sure I was going to die or be captured. The odds were insane!

Sorry to carry on, but my point is this: WOW! That was amazing. That was worth the price of this sim right there. What an immersive and incredible experience. That felt real! I have no idea how real it was. There's no way of knowing that. But the AI felt like people, not programs. The battle was heated, even desparate. I was able, with my novicy skill set, to not only survive, but to down three planes after being damaged by the first furball, and make it to safety. It felt real. And that's as good as you can get.

I would really like for Pol and Winder and all the guys not to take this sim a single step toward arcade. There are settings galore for people who want that. Change the effectiveness of AI. Make yourself invincible. Set your aircraft realism on easy. If you set it high, full realism, it should be hard! Probably harder than it was for me last night.

Okay, I'll shut up. But my limited experience is that AI aren't that tough to kill. Their weapons are not detectably better than mine (I'm happy range is reduced...that makes good sense) so far, and I couldn't be happier with the balance of fun and challenge. I've lost a lot of pilots. I'm nursing my favorites now. I don't fly like I'm superman. I shoot down a LOT of enemy planes. I'm having fun!

[Siggi]

Well, structural failure and kites falling apart is the only thing missing in this sim that I lament. It's an entire dynamic that's missing from the combat. But that's down to Microsoft, and yet another example of their half-assed shoddy workmanship (yes, WW2 planes did come apart, but not in CFS3's rendition).

[gimpyguy]

I know that I will sound like a spoiled brat but...
How much reduced???!!???

Definately Less then it is now

That sounds strangely like a "Positive Maybe", we heard that one for quite awhile, along with "SOON"

[Gousgounis]

Okay, I'll shut up.

No griphos, dont shut up . This is one of the best posts describing OFF. I feel exactly the same about this game (and many others i am sure )

[aust3298]

I agree with Griphos. Now, I will say that the sim is definitely more difficult since patch 1.25. Prior to 1.25, I had several pilots headed toward 10 hours with 5 to 8 kills apiece. Now, I feel I am lucky if I survive any combat. I have not had a pilot make it to 3 hours yet. BUT, I am not complaining... it makes each flight more tense and combat or impending combat literally causes sweaty palms. To me, this is realistic. I mean I really have no idea what reality in WWI air combat was acutally like, I can only surmise, but I do know what makes me tight in the pit of my stomach and that currently is comat in BHAH.

All this is just to say to Winder and Co. to please be careful. I know you need to patch for fixes and enhancements, but if this is made too easy it would be a great loss. Anywho, I know you guys know what you are doing and will handle this with your usual aplomb and skill, just wanted to have my say. Thanks.

[Mk2]

Range is now reduced in V1.26/V1.3 - P2 was even further range so you would be going to a worse scenario.


HTH

WM

crap , does that mean my range is reduced also? If yes I have to think up new strategies for 2 seaters. I'm having the exact opposite after 1.25 I logged more claims and kills in a few sessions at 1.25 than I did in a few weeks at 1.2....I think it's that I just got better.

BTW good read Gryphos, thanks.

[77Scout]

crap , does that mean my range is reduced also?.

Don't think so. It is just an adjustment to the range that the AI will judge suitable to start firing.

[KiloWolfhelm]

crap , does that mean my range is reduced also? If yes I have to think up new strategies for 2 seaters. I'm having the exact opposite after 1.25 I logged more claims and kills in a few sessions at 1.25 than I did in a few weeks at 1.2....I think it's that I just got better.

BTW good read Gryphos, thanks.

correct me if im wrong, but i believe the range change winder was talking about is the range at which AI will open up their guns, not the range at which the projectiles travel.

[Winder]

crap , does that mean my range is reduced also? If yes I have to think up new strategies for 2 seaters. I'm having the exact opposite after 1.25 I logged more claims and kills in a few sessions at 1.25 than I did in a few weeks at 1.2....I think it's that I just got better.

BTW good read Gryphos, thanks.

No we are talking AI...

HTH

WM

[Over50]

AI Gun Fire will be scaleable in V1.26/V1.3

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...127#post126127

HTH

WM

YEA! (I'm on pilot 28...or is it 29, hmmm..nope, it's 30..)

[Fortiesboy]

Well, structural failure and kites falling apart is the only thing missing in this sim that I lament. It's an entire dynamic that's missing from the combat. But that's down to Microsoft, and yet another example of their half-assed shoddy workmanship (yes, WW2 planes did come apart, but not in CFS3's rendition).

No Siggi, it isn't down to Microsoft. More damage is programmable. I have modded it in both phase 2 and in Phase 3. I have wings coming off and fire and explosions etc.
I haven't posted these mods because it isn't for me to do so. On enquiry, the devs have given permission for one or two of my friends to use them, and I thank them for that.

I also am thankful that they have made the AI range and accuracy scaleable.
That should suit everyone. If something is scaleable, quite honestly I think it not reasonable for some of us to demand that something stay as it is because it suits us and our concept of realism. I am also concerned that this attitude is sometimes born of ego, .ie. "look how good i am- I can handle it "

This sim is the best there is. I play it every day. That was also my view of Phase 2. But this phase 3 is getting better and better since release.
Winder et al are listening, and working their socks off on patches etc. (look at the list in the Stickies)
It is remaining a hard sim, yet is being made scaleable to allow newbie access at whatever level they can initially achieve success at. Once in, their skill will grow and if they wish they will scale up.
But the important thing is that they get into the sim, at their mate's who introduced them to it, and so they then buy it for themselves.
I personally have shown the sim to too many mates who couldn't immediately handle it and who say WTTE - "Yea,very nice - looks good ...." etc and that's it. And my suspicion has been that they found it hard and didn't see the prospect of being able to handle it.

If hard work and constant support make for success , then this will be the No.1 sim in recent years.

[Siggi]

No Siggi, it isn't down to Microsoft. More damage is programmable. I have modded it in both phase 2 and in Phase 3. I have wings coming off and fire and explosions etc.
I haven't posted these mods because it isn't for me to do so. On enquiry, the devs have given permission for one or two of my friends to use them, and I thank them for that.

I also am thankful that they have made the AI range and accuracy scaleable.
That should suit everyone. If something is scaleable, quite honestly I think it not reasonable for some of us to demand that something stay as it is because it suits us and our concept of realism. I am also concerned that this attitude is sometimes born of ego, .ie. "look how good i am- I can handle it "

This sim is the best there is. I play it every day. That was also my view of Phase 2. But this phase 3 is getting better and better since release.
Winder et al are listening, and working their socks off on patches etc. (look at the list in the Stickies)
It is remaining a hard sim, yet is being made scaleable to allow newbie access at whatever level they can initially achieve success at. Once in, their skill will grow and if they wish they will scale up.
But the important thing is that they get into the sim, at their mate's who introduced them to it, and so they then buy it for themselves.
I personally have shown the sim to too many mates who couldn't immediately handle it and who say WTTE - "Yea,very nice - looks good ...." etc and that's it. And my suspicion has been that they found it hard and didn't see the prospect of being able to handle it.

If hard work and constant support make for success , then this will be the No.1 sim in recent years.

Wings CAN be shot off?! Structural failure after damage? But only with a special mod? Hmm, that begs a question.

I absolutely agree with your points about scalability.

[Winder]

No Siggi, it isn't down to Microsoft. More damage is programmable. I have modded it in both phase 2 and in Phase 3. I have wings coming off and fire and explosions etc.
I haven't posted these mods because it isn't for me to do so. On enquiry, the devs have given permission for one or two of my friends to use them, and I thank them for that.

I also am thankful that they have made the AI range and accuracy scaleable.
That should suit everyone. If something is scaleable, quite honestly I think it not reasonable for some of us to demand that something stay as it is because it suits us and our concept of realism. I am also concerned that this attitude is sometimes born of ego, .ie. "look how good i am- I can handle it "

This sim is the best there is. I play it every day. That was also my view of Phase 2. But this phase 3 is getting better and better since release.
Winder et al are listening, and working their socks off on patches etc. (look at the list in the Stickies)
It is remaining a hard sim, yet is being made scaleable to allow newbie access at whatever level they can initially achieve success at. Once in, their skill will grow and if they wish they will scale up.
But the important thing is that they get into the sim, at their mate's who introduced them to it, and so they then buy it for themselves.
I personally have shown the sim to too many mates who couldn't immediately handle it and who say WTTE - "Yea,very nice - looks good ...." etc and that's it. And my suspicion has been that they found it hard and didn't see the prospect of being able to handle it.

If hard work and constant support make for success , then this will be the No.1 sim in recent years.

Hello thanks for this.

Yes our aim at the moment now that the nasty bugs have been sorted is to listen and adjust as and when necessary and yes our main focus is to make it more accessible without compromising the 'reality' of what it was like (with the constraints of the PC etc)

Not arcade but easier for newbies to get into it - 1.26 will see a lot of work in this direction but please note those that like it as it is will still be playing it as it is - we are just allowing more flexible scalability.

Finally we would please just like all modders to hold back release of mods til 1.3 is out as this will help us support and sort our issues rather than 3rd party issues. We would like to maintain open correspondence with all modders but if you drop us a mail and our reply is short please understand we are heavily loaded with what we have on board at the moment but we will talk to everyone that contacts us wrt to modding and more so post 1.3



Cheers

WM