The OFF DiD Standard. - Page 2
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Thread: The OFF DiD Standard.

  1. #26
    Maeran
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Interlocutor View Post
    Today in a QC I switched my main guns setting in Workshop from "Normal" to "Tight", and much to my surprise my "Realism Score" went up by 10%, from 90% to 100%.

    Is that the way it's supposed to be?

    That might need further discussion. I've been using 'loose' for rotaries and 'normal' for inline engines, as per the old tips and tricks thread. Wouldn't like to be penalised for flying a rotary.

    I also know when a pilot has been warping .... ahem.....
    My FE2b pilots have often spent a lot of time using the cigarettes as a slip indicator. Their proximity to the postcard of the dancing girl is a complete coincidence, I'll have you know.

  2. #27
    gimpyguy
    Guest
    I would never aspire to such a list, and if you wish to continue with it, by all means be my guest. But since roughly 35% of the folks around these parts adjust their own mixtures, I honestly see that those who don't, should be DiD-. As the real life pilots had to, in order to stay alive in a scrap. If diving too far in the heat of battle, you should forget to richen your mixture accordingly, you WILL stall, next stop - Dirt Nap. That's the reason for the Full Rich command, Ctrl+Shft+F7 best remapped to a single keystroke. No time to be messing with 3 Keys, when your virtual life is on the line.

    I know of a few Hard Core Simers, who Never use the TAC or the Labels, they navigate with paper maps, and the cockpit compass.
    There are also pilots that Must WARP, or get a divorce

    That's DiD-,DiD, DiD+-, and DiD-+

    Not to Forget my catagory DiD:bs:

  3. #28
    ftgc
    Guest
    This sounds like a great idea. I personally like the idea of the encrypted files to be sent in to be verified so that we are sure the playing field is level. On the outworldly event that causes your pilot to die well "life sucks and then you..." what?...that's right die The only problem I have is that I use warp to get my flight in line. I have the x and the c key mapped to start and stop warp. After takeoff I circle back over the field and give a quick x&c stroke just to get the flight in formation, I don't move more than a quarter mile. However I can live with the no warp clause. And did you also say no time compress?

    So Siggi could you post what the final resolutions for the settings have to be.

  4. #29
    Mk2
    Guest
    Great initial post and i think it's great to set a DiD standard with forum members but you sort of lost me at labels.

    I play DiD and I feel that the labels actually make it more realistic as it gives you more awareness of the sky allowing you to spot planes at correct distances, otherwise you are pixel hunting on your monitor.....it's actually more real to me to have the labels on.

    real time without warp is also a time killer for me and probably not feasible.

    another idea could be to sort of set it at a realism level and let users reach it in their preferred ways. As an exmaple 110% or 100%

  5. #30
    shunkan
    Guest
    I'd like to get on board with this, but not being able to warp would limit me greatly, time constraints. Maybe a compromise, warp in not out, vice versa or something.

  6. #31
    Over50
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Siggi View Post

    Real Time: All campaign missions must be flown in real time. To do otherwise gives a pilot an unrealistic advantage in terms of fatigue and attentiveness thereof. It also de-values the stock you invest in your character, which itself tends to lead to unrealistic behaviour in combat, which can skew combat-results.
    Most everything you've mentioned I've been trying to do....but I draw the line on this one. Maybe you have a bladder the size of a bathtub but I don't. And I ain't about to start using a tube and and a bucket so I can achieve what you've dubbed realistic "fatigue" and faltering "attentiveness" of flying missions in real time...

  7. #32
    catch22
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Winder View Post
    I also know when a pilot has been warping .... ahem.....
    WM
    OMG ! But .... but it was an accident I tell you ! It was the Z key. I was trying to hit the Z key :Banane37: ....

    I like the sound of this thread. Any method to purge us of those bally cheaters has got my vote ! It's a good thing we, of His Majesty's Royal Flying Corps, were taught proper that's all I'll say ....

  8. #33
    Rickitycrate
    Guest
    One thing about the parameters. Maybe I'm the only one without trackir? Seems having it is a monster advantage. I have so many blind spots now and I can see the advantage of it in the videos. So for me I would give it a go now but not to sweat my rating until such time that I have trackir and adjusted to it. I'm onboard.

  9. #34
    Winder
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Red-dog View Post
    Great idea , how about doing a patch which would be able to set the settings so every one,s playing with the same ball?
    I am looking at this for 1.3 together with encryption so that we can start the Global Ladder - more later.

    WM

  10. #35
    Siggi
    Guest
    Auto Mixture: Some of these a/c didn't have a manual mixture control. I certainly don't know which did and which didn't. How about those which don't, are they allowed to perform unrealistically in-game vs those a/c which do? Auto-mixture removes that confusion and possible unfairness.

    Labels: Labels on gives a player a hugely unfair edge over one who has them off. With them off a player will often lose sight of a plane he's chasing behind his wing and maybe break off because he thinks he's been given the slip. Etc. A player with them on will lose sight of the plane but still be able to see the text.

    Warp: This really is a biggie. It comes down to how much work a player puts in, long-term, to his character. How much stock he has in him, how he fights him and how quickly in real-time he can accrue kills. It's a huge difference in quality. Somebody who's flown and survived 17 hours in real time is certainly entitled to feel significantly more pride in that accomplishment than somebody who's done it in four or five hours of real time, irrespective of the warper's legitimate reasons for using warp (which are many and perfectly understandable). When I was playing RB2-3D many years ago I was in and out working from early morning to late at night and I was lucky if I had time for one mission per day (which was what I tried for but often failed). But I still did them in real time. Best thing I can suggest is have two campaign pilots, one for DiD for when you have the time and one for warping (non DiD) for when you don't but need a fix ("shootin' up with OFF here darlin'!" ).

    Every sport has rules, and those who want to play that sport have to conform to them if they want to play. They can't have them changed to suit their particular circumstances, as much as the organizers might sympathise with their plight. Darts players have to stand a certain distance from the board, even those with short arms. They have to attend at the time the match is set to play, they can't ask to be later or earlier because of other commitments. And they have to use darts of a given design and weight, because the people who made the rules decided upon a standard that made sense and best rewarded the skills involved. And etc etc etc.

    Those who can't conform to those rules, for whatever legitimate reason, play down the pub with their mates. And have just as much fun, just they don't win any money or have any standing in a formal/official league.

    So what's DiD for? It's a bit of extra fun, it's for those who have the time and/or inclination to be held to a formal standard and give a hoot about that. Sure, there are plenty of people who want to do it but can't, because of their particular circumstances. Just as there are people who would love to play league darts, but can't.

    The reality is this is 'just a game', and there are plenty of people who would mock the very idea of any kind of 'standard'. Forgetting, of course, that standards are applied to just about any endeavour, leisure or work, by individuals or groups, for serious reasons or just for fun. And there are hundreds of simmers who have enjoyed the heck out of DiD in the past. So it's here now, to be enjoyed or declined, by those who can or can't, for whatever reasons. Just as will be the case when Winder deploys his file-submission system. You'll either be up for that or you won't, by choice or by circumstance.

    As for DiD+, DiD++, DiD-, DiD--, etc etc etc, tried that, it didn't work. We actually had flame-wars over it. So there's one standard. Yes, some players can exceed it a little in certain sims, if they so wish. Some players are disadvantaged by lack of certain hardware, and vice-versa.

    The bottom line...there's the standard. If you can meet it and do well under it you have formal bragging rights. You can not meet it and still brag. Who cares? Only those who care. It's for fun. Or for those who take their vFlying/combat a little bit more seriously, in whatever way and for whatever reason.

    It's entirely your choice. If you want to sign up to it, and want people to know you hold yourself to it's standard, display the acronym somewhere. Or don't, your choice, your game, your fun. Or display it with your own personal caveats ("I play DiD but with warp allowed" for example). People will make of that what they will, a kind of self-imposed DiD sub-ranking I guess.

    Just remember, the harder you make it (within the bounds of fairness and realism) and the more effort you put in, if the role-playing aspect is your bag, the more you will enjoy the sim long-term. Personally I've become badly jaded since RB2-3D by many years of mediocre or crap PC games. OFF is like a breath of fresh air for me and I'm happy to make a bigger deal of it. I don't go down the pub, I sold my bike, TV is nothing but adverts, I don't draw or make models anymore...so OFF is what I do for kicks. And DiD is just an extra dimension of fun.

  11. #36
    Siggi
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Over50 View Post
    Most everything you've mentioned I've been trying to do....but I draw the line on this one. Maybe you have a bladder the size of a bathtub but I don't. And I ain't about to start using a tube and and a bucket so I can achieve what you've dubbed realistic "fatigue" and faltering "attentiveness" of flying missions in real time...
    Pause button.

  12. #37
    Dej
    Guest
    In general I'm in agreement with the whole DiD thing and immersion is so much less w/o it. I'm at Realism 90 with auto-mixture on and other settings as per DiD (not sure what else to change to push it up)

    Couple of questions not yet covered (at least not explicitly or I missed 'em):

    I don't have Track IR so I toggle padlock, is that allowed?

    As posted elsewhere I toggle labels on but generally only once I have the kill (insofar as I can tell) just to see who it was, then they go off again.

    I try not to warp, but I have done to reform my flight. Generally, if time is limited I'll use 'Optional Flight' in an attempt to reduce flight time. I assume that's okay. If I can't do it then I'll QC for my fix instead. I generally fly one or two missions in my evening's 'gaming time' so in-game time passes slowly for me.

    I have 'Pause' mapped on my X52 and I use it if interrupted. I don't think that should be penalised as it can in fact drop me off an EA's six when I unpause. I need a 'freeze j/s position' command!

    For myself though, I'm not interested in a ladder. Surviving 17+ hours at 90 will be enough... if I ever make it. I won't assume I'm better than someone who did it at 70 or less... or that they are 'cheating'. They may have very valid reasons because of hardware or RL issues.

  13. #38
    Siggi
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Dej View Post
    In general I'm in agreement with the whole DiD thing and immersion is so much less w/o it. I'm at Realism 90 with auto-mixture on and other settings as per DiD (not sure what else to change to push it up)

    Couple of questions not yet covered (at least not explicitly or I missed 'em):

    I don't have Track IR so I toggle padlock, is that allowed?

    As posted elsewhere I toggle labels on but generally only once I have the kill (insofar as I can tell) just to see who it was, then they go off again.

    I try not to warp, but I have done to reform my flight. Generally, if time is limited I'll use 'Optional Flight' in an attempt to reduce flight time. I assume that's okay. If I can't do it then I'll QC for my fix instead. I generally fly one or two missions in my evening's 'gaming time' so in-game time passes slowly for me.

    I have 'Pause' mapped on my X52 and I use it if interrupted. I don't think that should be penalised as it can in fact drop me off an EA's six when I unpause. I need a 'freeze j/s position' command!

    For myself though, I'm not interested in a ladder. Surviving 17+ hours at 90 will be enough... if I ever make it. I won't assume I'm better than someone who did it at 70 or less... or that they are 'cheating'. They may have very valid reasons because of hardware or RL issues.
    Any viewing system is fair, seeing as how none of them can be as good as TiR.

    Your use of labels and warping, there's the letter of the rules and the spirit of them too. You'll know if your breaking of the letter also breaks the spirit. "I used the labels, for a couple of seconds, just to see who it was I just shot down...does that mean I've cheated?" No, manifestly not.

    Using the warp to sort your wingmen out? Count up the time that saves you over a large number of missions and it might come to hours eventually. And the slippery slope..."Oh what the hell, I'll just leave it on for a few seconds more, what does it matter, dinner's nearly ready..." Or so some people would suspect. Bottom line is this, does your use of it give you any kind of advantage, short-term or long-term, over somebody who uses it not at all?

    Selecting "alternative mission" (or whatever it's called), entirely legitimate in as much as I'm sure real pilots traded different assignments within a day's workload.

    Pause button, absolutely essential in the real world. Otherwise there's not a single player who would be able to fly any sort of campaign worth a damn.

  14. #39

    Nice!

    This is very cool..........great plan!!!

  15. #40
    andqui
    Guest
    I don't really like the idea of encrypting dossier files; I got tired of seeing my AI squaddies constantly survive everything, and have started going in there and changing names. However, if it is possible to take the death/casualty system that's used to track the player, and add it to the AI, so there are more realistic casualties, MIA's, etc, then I would be all for it.

  16. #41
    ZoomZoom
    Guest
    Cool deal Siggi, I wasn't advocating using labels, I never do, only the TAC cause without it you cant see as far as you really could if you were "in the world" of OFF. : ).....and not staring at a small 2d Screen.

    ZZ.

    This could be fun. I understand your warping restriciton as well....makes sense.

  17. #42
    Siggi
    Guest
    The TAC doesn't fully compensate, it just points one in the right direction. I've still been bounced while heading to where the red markers were. But it's better than now't or labels. In truth, so far as this particular issue is concerned, we've got it harder than the real chaps. But it's made up for in other ways (not dying for real being the main one).

  18. #43
    Interlocutor
    Guest

    For Winder:

    Elsewhere I've seen posts by the developers that more sales of OFF3 would be nice.

    I've also seen discussions about restricting the ability of players to "revive" pilots by encrypting the log file.

    It seems to me that limiting the options a player has in the way he/she "plays the game" might tend to inhibit sales rather than increase them? Or do you think that re-coding OFF3 so as to make for a more viable "ladder", by limiting ways in which ladder participants could "cheat", might attract more customers than would be lost if player options were limited?

    I have no opinion either way, I don't revive my own dead pilots, but I can understand that others might want to be able to do so. So I'm curious as to the developer's opinions on this. I love the game, and most definitely would like to see it prosper, sales-wise.

  19. #44
    Siggi
    Guest
    Maybe it would be possible to have a button to voluntarily lock a chartacter at enlistment, with a marker showing that had been done somewhere on the logbook page?

    Non-locked characters could be revived in the normal way.

  20. #45

    A few thoughts...

    In general, I LOVE the DiD idea. The few niggles I see have mostly already been addressed here, but one of my issues is the HUD. I usually don't use it, but when I am in clouds (yes I know, but sometimes you've no choice), the only way I can tell if I have entered a crazy spin in time is the artificial horizon. Being surrounded by clouds, I can't see the horizon. Sure, the engine starts to overspeed or die, but by then it is often too late to recover. I assume that if I had a force feedback stick I would "feel" the crazy spin starting, but my stick is no help there. Again... minor point, but it makes me nervous. What are y'alls thoughts on this? Any suggestions...?

    The other thing I'd like to see if this were to come to pass, is more info provided by the devs on how to set up multiple installs. Sometimes I just want an arcade shooter. As it stands I have to change my settings every time I just wanna blow stuff up! This can get tedious. I guess what I mean is it would be good to have the option to quickly and easily revert to easier settings so as not to affect my standing when I just wanna tool around and take crazy chances. Is that making sense?
    "I'd rather have a free bottle in front of me than a pre-frontal lobotomy"

  21. #46
    Over50
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Siggi View Post
    Pause button.
    True...but I errantly neglected the circumstance where I've received a direct order from the primary commander (wife) to "quit playing that thing and take me out to eat like you promised". But then, as has been noted previously....I suppose I could play God and resurrect myself from the dead which would "unDiD" what I did...so to speak.. :d

  22. #47
    Siggi
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Over50 View Post
    True...but I errantly neglected the circumstance where I've received a direct order from the primary commander (wife) to "quit playing that thing and take me out to eat like you promised". But then, as has been noted previously....I suppose I could play God and resurrect myself from the dead which would "unDiD" what I did...so to speak.. :d
    That sounds like a time to make an emergency landing.:amen:

    Zommoz, what you describe there (disorientated in a cloud) is a perfectly realistic situation in which to find yourself. An artificial way of surviving it is the very antithesis of what DiD is about.

  23. #48
    shunkan
    Guest
    Oh well, I agree with most things, but I'm still stuck on warping. I can't buy the arguement that it someway makes you care less about your pilot, or that it makes one do foolhardy things; I can however understand the idea of vesting so much "real time" in to actually get to 17 hours or more. All the power to you if you can invest the time, but imho allowing the use of the tac, and not warp is unreasonable.

    The tac gives one the advantage of picking their fights or flights, and will lead you to any enemy that would be otherwise unseen. Especially so, if you run from a large "blip", but go check out a samller one (if that makes sense), or get a little heads up about possible problems near a target. I'm just a nazi when it comes to the use of the tac. I know it can be argued that warp does a similar thing, but I beleive that if tac use, then warp should be allowed.

    I am not above compromise, lord knows we Americans could use it!! My personal rules: in a typical mission I usually warp to the front, fly the assigned mission parameters real time, and then warp after I get back over friendly area, and then always land and engine off exit. Its usually a nice 30-40 minutes saved for me personally.

    I would agree to have some "*" near my name that said "he used the warp"---since in the US it seems ok for atheletes to do the same.......he he

  24. #49
    Giant2111
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Over50 View Post
    True...but I errantly neglected the circumstance where I've received a direct order from the primary commander (wife) to "quit playing that thing and take me out to eat like you promised". But then, as has been noted previously....I suppose I could play God and resurrect myself from the dead which would "unDiD" what I did...so to speak.. :d
    This is the reason for a flight schedule:friday:

  25. #50
    Siggi
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by shunkan View Post
    Oh well, I agree with most things, but I'm still stuck on warping. I can't buy the arguement that it someway makes you care less about your pilot, or that it makes one do foolhardy things; I can however understand the idea of vesting so much "real time" in to actually get to 17 hours or more. All the power to you if you can invest the time, but imho allowing the use of the tac, and not warp is unreasonable.

    The tac gives one the advantage of picking their fights or flights, and will lead you to any enemy that would be otherwise unseen. Especially so, if you run from a large "blip", but go check out a samller one (if that makes sense), or get a little heads up about possible problems near a target. I'm just a nazi when it comes to the use of the tac. I know it can be argued that warp does a similar thing, but I beleive that if tac use, then warp should be allowed.

    I am not above compromise, lord knows we Americans could use it!! My personal rules: in a typical mission I usually warp to the front, fly the assigned mission parameters real time, and then warp after I get back over friendly area, and then always land and engine off exit. Its usually a nice 30-40 minutes saved for me personally.

    I would agree to have some "*" near my name that said "he used the warp"---since in the US it seems ok for atheletes to do the same.......he he
    Well, let me put it this way...if you and another person dug a ditch, but you did only one hour's digging and the other chap did eight hour's digging, would you expect the same amount of pay for it as him?

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