CFS3 Cockpit design nd building - Can someone hepls?

[lgoncalv]

Hi there friends. Althought being a newbie here i´m a long tome CFS games player and MB as well. Something that always bother me were some CFS3 cockpits, rather basic or poor ( mainly the stock ones ) , when the planes always looked pretty good outside. I´m not interested in Planes 3d modeling but would be fun trying to learn some cockpit design. Can you link me to some good tutorials and / or software?



Thanks in advance


Nel

[Frosty]

Unfortunately, I feel it it is much like 3D aircraft modeling: Same tools, same skills, only a different part of the aircraft. Although that may save you from learning to create complex shapes such as wings and the joining of wings and fuselage etc.you still have to learn some basic Gmax modeling and animation skills.

Start with installing Gmax, download the CFS3 aircraft modeling SDK and study the P-47 and Ju 88 that come along with that. I have seen some tutorials but either they used another modeling program or they were not targeted at CFS3. This makes a difference when it comes to animating the gauges etc. See the SDK for the proper naming conventions and animations. Search for 'modeling' or 'building a virtual cockpit' or similar words if you want to find a tutorial. Good reference material, preferably scale drawings, is also a must. Without that, you only have the Mk.I Eyeball to go by (you will have to use that plenty anyway) which make it hard to imagine that the result will be better / more accurate than the stock cockpits if that's all you have - unless you have a serious talent, of course .

Perhaps a nice start would be rebuilding the P-47 cockpit as most parts are already there but, as you point out, the whole is rather substandard. I am trying to hone my skills on that as well because the model, though instantly recognizable as a P-47, has some annoying flaws (IMHO).

Good luck!!

[hairyspin]

(wry smile)

I found VC modelling every bit as hard to learn as aircraft modelling... Frosty makes a useful suggestion, but I'd suggest Luca's much better P47-D 25 Gmax model over at FSDeveloper as a cockpit-less model which would be very good to build a VC for.

[Frosty]

...but I'd suggest Luca's much better P47-D 25 Gmax model over at FSDeveloper ...

Ah man, that is annoying! I didn't know such a model was floating around on the web. Now I spent serious time doing my own... Oh well, it was an interesting, useful, learning experience.

My creation on the left (slightly later P-47 model, not even close to being finished), Luca's is on the right (I think I will still try to finish mine):

[hairyspin]

Yours has a tailwheel Joost, so one up to you! ;-)

[Frosty]

Yours has a tailwheel Joost, so one up to you! ;-)

Lol, but that can easily be rectified on Luca's model. Mine is still missing it's right landing gear .

... but I'd suggest Luca's much better P47-D 25 Gmax model over at FSDeveloper ...

From a modeling standpoint it is much better than the stock P-47 [he boldly states with just two months of AC modeling behind his belt ] but after comparing it to the size-calibration boxes I did for various parts of the aircraft I must conclude that it is at least a bit on the skinny side and too short (the stock P-47D is also too short and has a prop that is also too small). Of course, it is all depending on the backdrop drawing one uses (my keel might be a little too bulged) but numbers given by Republic engineers should be trustworthy. The box below shows the max. fuselage dimensions (with engine mount) for models later than AF 42-24940 (data from the Erection & Maintenance manual). There are also some other small details that could be changed with some work: flap shape and animation (they are slotted and move down aft before dropping. So a big part of them are hidden under the wing), guns (they are not lined up with the dihedral of the wing but horizontal), antenna mast that should offset to the right etc.

I don't mean to be overly critical of the model (especially as I hardly have Luca's modeling skills) but it was stuff like that on the stock model that finally made me try my hand at an AC (actually it also was the stock VC).
Having said that, I really enjoy his model: how the smooth joint between the wing and fuselage is modeled is still beyond my capabilities and I really, really like the top part of the windscreen. I am still struggling with that. Luca seems to have found the right curvature in both dimensions. Also, the landing gear doors are captured very well. They are quite beefy on a P-47. He even included the cutout for the wheel. I was hoping to get away with painting that detail...

So, whatever model you try to improve, there's always something or someone . The advantage of trying to improve the stock cockpit is that you can start off with little details and work your way up from there: repainting, rearranging of the gauges (as the cockpits differ with versions of the Thunderbolt), pushing the electrical panel back in (it is too much outside of the cockpit now and sits on the wrong side for a -D model) etc. Even though the external model is lacking, you would be improving all models simultanously because thare are many repaints and standalones of the stock bubbletop. They would benefit from the new cockpit too!

Have fun! (and a lot of patience)

[hairyspin]

Getting accurate drawings to work from is always a problem: some aircraft are minutely documented, so minutely you can't see the wood for the twigs. Others you're lucky to get accurate measurements of length and longth and plan view is a different wingspan from the front elevation. I have fabulous references for a future project and a mix of so-so, accurate and downright wonky for the current model but cockpit details are the hardest to pin down.

[Frosty]

Only too true!

And what some web-based businesses sometimes dare to ask for reference material that they themselves probably did not buy... I came across a set of blueprints that cost a couple of thousand $. Granted, originally the aircraft was the work of a commercial enterprise but the thing isn't exactly current anymore AND part of history so I feel it might as well be in the public domain.

[hairyspin]

Hum, might as well say the same about photographic prints by the masters but copyright is still copyright. I know there are questionable sites out there, but if the copyright owners wish to charge for old data that's their privilege. It also pays off at times to ask museums and restorers nicely if you can get a closer look than Joe Public - or lurk in corners on quiet days, camera primed and ready for the goons to go around the corner...

[Milton Shupe]

I have many detailed drawings of all models of the P-47 that I would be happy to share.

I had collected these drawings over several years in preparing to build the xp-72, xp-47J, and xp-47h.

I will also share any of the gmax source from the 3 models to assist you in a starting point, both exterior and interior (vc) models.
These products were built for FS9/FSX port overs so would need to be re-animated and remapped for textures.

Just send a PM and I will upload all the drawings and gmax source for you.

You may use any or all of my modeling work as you wish.

Here are a few pics of the three aircraft as released.

[hairyspin]

Very generous of you Milton! Also follow threads showing work in progress: here's one currently running:–

BN-2A Trislander

[lgoncalv]

Sorry if i´m disturbing you guys...
I understood your advised comments and seems is not that easy as i thought. Anyway can you link me to both GMAX and CFS3 SDK?

Cheers!

[hairyspin]

The CFS3 sdk is here at SOH, as listed in the sticky above. For the Gmax download link and lots of useful info, go to the Aircraft Design and Animation forum. Don't be afraid to ask questions, but read the advice in that forum first.


(don't mind us burbling on, modelling gets to you like that)

[Daiwilletti]

Hi Lgoncalv,

As Frosty says, you can do an initial step to get the feel of things, of repainting textures and moving instruments around (or choosing newer instrument textures, may need maker's permission).

Back in the early days there were a lot of cockpit upgrades which IIRC involved largely repainting cockpit textures. What I suggest is you dig up a few of them, unpack them, compare them to the stock cockpits, and work out what they did. After trying that, see if Pat Pattle has time to tell you about his hurricane cockpit upgrades.

Simviation has some examples of cockpit repaints http://simviation.com/cfs3panels1.htm

See also this discussion http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...ckpit-Graphics

HTH,

[lgoncalv]

All right fellas seems a hard work is waitting for me in my spare time...
Thanks for all your tips!

Cheers

[sdsbolt]

Nel,
Good luck! Creating a vc only may cut the work in half but it’s still a fair amount of work. I would probably experiment with creating a simple vc in gmax to get a feel for 3d modeling.
Let us know how it goes.

Frost,
I like it! Did you attempt to smooth out the front of the cowing? I keep squinting to see it in your screenies I like Milton’s xp-47 vcs .Hopefully they can be tailored to work in your P-47

[Frosty]

Thanks,

Yes, the cowling is (or will be) a single smoothing group, but I did not join the two fuselage halves for the screenie. Maybe that's what you are referring to? The cowlflaps are a separate group because they stick out better that way. But maybe I should add some extra poly's? I 'll put up a better screenie at the ETO dev's forum when I get to that point.

About the VC; I did not ask Milton for his sourcefiles. I 'd like to see if I can do it myself anyway. If I am doing this right, it probably should be reasonably compatible (only the first P-72's cockpit - the other one is a birdcage). But it still needs a gunsight!

[sdsbolt]

Frosty,
yeah, better smoothing group would help but adding more poly's would help more though I am sure you know that . Adding more poly's might mean you have to have to fix the mapping so it depends on how much you want to invest in this project. Are you animating the cowl flaps? That would probably look good.
I assume you are converting to a d-28? That would be a nifty little project . And hmmm.....maybe a d-30 is in your future

Roger that on the scratch build vc though I would probably jump at the chance to use Milton's work. You would still have the joy of switching things around and building a nice new gunsight.

[sixstrings5859]

A good cockpit adds so much to immersion that it is as important as the main model and let us not forget flight modelling , XPD's and other files needed to make it all come together.

[Frosty]

Frosty,
yeah, better smoothing group would help but adding more poly's would help more though I am sure you know that . Adding more poly's might mean you have to have to fix the mapping so it depends on how much you want to invest in this project. Are you animating the cowl flaps? That would probably look good.
I assume you are converting to a d-28? That would be a nifty little project . And hmmm.....maybe a d-30 is in your future

Roger that on the scratch build vc though I would probably jump at the chance to use Milton's work. You would still have the joy of switching things around and building a nice new gunsight.

No mapping issues - haven't gotten to that stage yet. The gray colour must have fooled you. It was just a trick to compare the models. The real model is like a clown's suit with every part a different colour. So I can do whatever I want without causing any issues further down a pipeline that isn't there yet. And yes, of course the cowlflaps will be animated. One of the sorry things about the stock model... I 'll give the extra polys around the cowl a thought.

Hmm, your crystal ball is well-calibrated : a D-30 it is supposed to be (animated dive flaps and an instrument panel that differs slightly from the D-28), with hopefully a later conversion to the D-40 by adding the permanent fin fillet, wing pylon, rocket stubs and K-14 gun sight. Without the rocket stubs and K-14 gunsight it could pose as a fin fillet retro-fitted D-30. That should cover a good number of possible P-47 skins .
BTW, has anybody got reasonably thrustworthy dimensions of the K-14? (Dimensions of parts are also acceptable - a little extrapolation and the good old eye should keep things interesting). My first attempt seems a little too big right now...

[Pat Pattle]

Nice one Joost, you've been hiding that away!

[Frosty]

Nice one Joost, you've been hiding that away!

Yeah, the cat jumped right out of the bag with this talk about building cockpits

[hairyspin]

... has anybody got reasonably thrustworthy dimensions of the K-14? (Dimensions of parts are also acceptable - a little extrapolation and the good old eye should keep things interesting). My first attempt seems a little too big right now...

The basic overall dimensions are 5 inches square Joost, with the headbanger pad, reflector glass and other excresences bulging beyond that.

[sdsbolt]

Frosty,
The stock cowling looks angular but yours looks a little smoother though its hard to tell for sure in the small screenshots. Are you remapping the whole model?

Glad to hear you plan on a few subvarients. Surprised it hasn't been done before now.

[Frosty]

The basic overall dimensions are 5 inches square Joost, with the headbanger pad, reflector glass and other excresences bulging beyond that.

Thanks, that is really helpful!! Mine is too big.

Frosty,
The stock cowling looks angular but yours looks a little smoother though its hard to tell for sure in the small screenshots. Are you remapping the whole model?

Glad to hear you plan on a few subvarients. Surprised it hasn't been done before now.

The fuselage of my model is based on a 24-sided cylinder, so I hope that will be smooth enough. I am not RE-mapping the model because it hasn't been mapped yet . That's what I meant by saying I can do with it whatever I want at this stage. The model isn't finished yet and won't be anytime soon - there's still so much to do modeling-wise before I get to mapping the thing!

Bit of a surprise indeed! Flight models etc. have been done by the AvHistory guys for various P-47s but apart from the minor rebuild that Luca did of the stock P-47D, I wasn't aware of any completely new model. Doing some research for an airfield I was working on confronted me with a lot of P-47s sitting on the PSP etc. Reviewing my airfield work I didn't like the look of the stock D model; I always felt that the D-model resembled a big fat bird and the stock model isn't (and let's not forget the cockpit). So I finally decided to take the plunge and see if I could do something about that instead of hoping someone else would. Don't judge the model too harshly, it's my first (but do tell me what I can improve on!).